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Pikemens Lament rule discussion’s

Started by Andy Mellor, November 07, 2021, 06:25:42 pm

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Andy Mellor

Quote from: Martin S-C on November 07, 2021, 12:57:02 pmYour implementation of this rule effectively lobotomises field guns and that's an unbalancing issue I cannot accept.


Having carried out some research, admittedly only online, so don't mind other view points/experiences/mathematics. I just can't agree that the command shot hard to hit rule lobotomies field guns without looking at the over effectiveness of a field gun.

The rules state a regimental gun is only considered to fire canister, therefore it's upgraded unit of a 5lb field gun also only fires canister (shot fired at a loose formation of troops, of which all units in PL are placed in this bracket, would not be effective enough to take out a third of a unit per shot, (6 hits at stamina 2 unit). The rules seem to work around the effective range of muskets and canister is 12", fire from musket and regimental guns gain an extra 6" not for accuracy but weight/volume of fire. The field gun still has this effective range, which is the waiting for a loose formation of troops to get within effective range before opening fire?

Online research has provided the following. The battle field rate of fire for a 5lb ECW cannon is 15 rounds an hour, this will be steady work firing shot for an extended period. If your firing canister the the rate would be upped? I think Sealed Knot can reload to the bag charge in 30 seconds so about 40 seconds to complete one shot. Going from 3 to 2/3 of a minute per shot, giving an average of 1.5 minutes per shot, for rapid reload, smoke to clear, aim and shoot.

The battle field speed for cavalry in the napoleonic period (probably French horse speed but should be similar to ECW gallopers) is 100m per minute at a walk, 200m per minute at the trot and 300m per minute at the gallop. These seam quite low distances, but we will keep these as probably accurate for the battlefield.

With a maximums canister range of 48" galloper cavalry take 4.8 moves to cover 48" thus a field gun can fire at 48" reload and fire at 38", 28", 18" and 8" then be 0.8 reloaded. 4.8 reloads at 1.5 minutes per shot gives 7 minutes 12 seconds. Say 1 minute 12 seconds at the gallop, 2 minutes at a trot and 4 minutes at a walk under canister fire make the cavalry distance to contact at 1160m.

1160m range for canister fire is a figure that you must agree is a little excessive and way overpowered for ECW, probably maximum range for a WW2 6lb gun?

For a unit of foot to cover this distance of 48" moving at 6" at turn means they are under canister fire for 12 minutes! This is a loose formation skirmish game for ECW not ACW.

So I'm more inclined to look at field guns being unbalanced rather than command shot shielding other units?

Also an army can only field 1 cannon, so plenty of points left over for troops to get rid of command shot?

Andy Miller

Andy,
Interesting way of looking at it. You are a bit more historical than me. I look at it as shots you can get off before the unit closes the firer down. Similar in some ways I guess.
Eg Gallopers at Shotte 10" move vs 18" range, a well judged charge could get as little as one round of shooting, close range. Done at 5+ is 4 hits, one dead - worth a crack
First fire 4+, 6 hits 2 dead - less tempting
Yes I know these are averages and dice never play the game.
For me your galloper vs field gun is four rounds of firing, one at short range. 4+, 6 hits , 2 dead done three times and a 3+, 8 hits, 2 dead. Is destined to fail.
Even my dragoons would get 3 rounds of fire, six dead.
I know that the issue is that it fires on a roll of 8+ (7+ with officer, and why wouldn't you, 15/36 rolls fail to shoot).
Powerful !
Using cover/ terrain to get closer could be a very different story.

My personal view -
No game is perfect, or we'd all play it to the exclusion of any other. Every rule set has flaws. Troop types vary, but each one due to it's strengths and weaknesses should have a nemesis. Once into a rule set, let's be honest, we all spend our time looking for those units (or combination) that will give us an edge. That's life.
Andy
ECW Parliamentarian armies. Judge Dredd (Judges/Cal 2k+pts, Ape gang), FoW (MidWar German armour 2k pts, MidWar Afrika Corps 2k pts, LateWar German 4k+pts), Bolt Action (German, US Infantry), OpSquad (Panzer Grenadiers, Falschirmjaeger, Brit Inf), Dux Brit (Saxons), WoW (a small airforce), Fantasy (High Elves, Brets), Dystopian (FSA), Uncharted seas (Iron Dwarves), Sails of glory, X-wing, Dreadball (Humans and Dwarves), Check your six. Star Wars Armada.

Grahame

There is a key factor that is overlooked about a 17th Cent. battlefield - the sheer amount of smoke hanging around once the battle started. It was a recognised talent in a general to be able to get up wind of the enemy. Once the first few shots had been taken then everyone was firing blind - this reduced visibility is the reason why guns were very ineffective on the field in the ECW. They came into their own and were vital in a siege but at the set piece battles they weren't much use after a few rounds. Having refought the civil war for many years I can testify to the reduced visibility caused by powder smoke - and we have only a few hundred shot & a handful of guns rather than the thousands at a real battle.
Grahame

Andy Miller

"Fog of war", there are very few rule sets that do this well, if at all.
ECW Parliamentarian armies. Judge Dredd (Judges/Cal 2k+pts, Ape gang), FoW (MidWar German armour 2k pts, MidWar Afrika Corps 2k pts, LateWar German 4k+pts), Bolt Action (German, US Infantry), OpSquad (Panzer Grenadiers, Falschirmjaeger, Brit Inf), Dux Brit (Saxons), WoW (a small airforce), Fantasy (High Elves, Brets), Dystopian (FSA), Uncharted seas (Iron Dwarves), Sails of glory, X-wing, Dreadball (Humans and Dwarves), Check your six. Star Wars Armada.

Andy Mellor

November 11, 2021, 08:05:12 pm #4 Last Edit: November 11, 2021, 08:15:02 pm by Andy Mellor
Thinking of the best ways to play 2 Vs 1?

Some of the scenarios look to be perfect for 2v1 battles, morning assault with one 12pt force flanking springs to mind. However for a campaign, needing to gain honour for the officer it brings up some problems.

For the 2 forces, how would you decide to divide the honour gained from the game (if they get any!)
I'm thinking that one officer would gain the full amount for a victory (5 honour) the other captain would gain only 3 pts. The officer that gains the 5pts would be the one that gains the most honour during the game ( special orders/dice rolls/killing hero's etc) with inflicting most damage as a decider?

The second problem would be how to even out the imbalance caused by 2 offices activation bonus for 12pt armies against 1 for the 24pt army. possible solution could be.

The 24 pt army has a sub commander who has his own 12 pts of units which the main officer has no effect over.

The officer could get a +1 to activate movement orders so they can react quicker.

The officer gains the Ga Pa trait, if they already have this trait. It's range is increased to 24"

The officer gains the natural leader trait, if they already have this trait then they gain a +1 to a move or attack order on the re-roll.

Some of these may cause some overpowered problems, but the 2 armies are effectively gaining a re roll every turn?

Martin S-C

Perhaps "lobotomizing" was hyperbole but its possible to neutralize much of the effect of a field gun if you have a Commanded Shot unit at a critical point.

The issue I have with the rule as Grahame is implementing it in the campaign is 3-fold.

1) The rules on p.34 clearly state you can always shoot through all units that completely block another unit - the unit behind merely gets cover. A unit gets this cover bonus if "a majority of its models" are blocked by the unit in front. 100% of a units models is "a majority" so there's really no need for any house rule change to this, or any interpretation of what the rule writer intended.

2) The rules author has stated in the last few weeks on the PL FB page that this ruling Grahame is implementing is incorrect and it was never the intention that Commanded Shot screens should be used to stop artillery shooting through them at targets beyond.

3) The simple logic of what is happening. You have a unit of foot in front of another unit. The claim is that these foot are hard to target because they are dispersed to some degree and in some cases may be using cover, or moving about more rapidly than other foot do. However it is impossible for a unit to claim dispersal/cover/and difficulty to hit and at the same time claim it is dense enough to hide a unit behind from view. Logic states you can have one or the other - not both. To take an example out of our period, imagine a British gun crew at Waterloo atop a rise and watching a French column advancing towards them a few hundred yards away (well out of musket range). In front of the column is a screen of voltigeurs. Do the British gunners shoot at the column or not? Can they see the column? In both cases the answer is yes, of course they see it and of course they shoot at it.
Cheers
Martin

Ne Plus Ultra - My 18thC Imagi-Nations Campaign, 1/72nd Plastics, Old School Rules

Interests: ECW, WSS, WAS, SYW, 18th C imagi-nations, Victorian Wars, Post-WWI what ifs, WWII (Command Decision)... most other periods involving gunpowder!

Andy Miller

Here's one for you all?
Rules state (p28 and p43) that a unit that's wavering and fails to rally continues to retreat. All good so far, makes sense and this is how we play it. However "When a unit retreats, it must move directly away from the unit that caused the retreat". The unit that caused the retreat may have moved since the initial attack, changing the direction of retreat. A fast moving unit could "shepherd" the retreating unit into danger or off the board?

Rules as written? I think I've mostly seen the direction/ trajectory that's initially caused continued in a straight line.
Just something I'd noticed.
ECW Parliamentarian armies. Judge Dredd (Judges/Cal 2k+pts, Ape gang), FoW (MidWar German armour 2k pts, MidWar Afrika Corps 2k pts, LateWar German 4k+pts), Bolt Action (German, US Infantry), OpSquad (Panzer Grenadiers, Falschirmjaeger, Brit Inf), Dux Brit (Saxons), WoW (a small airforce), Fantasy (High Elves, Brets), Dystopian (FSA), Uncharted seas (Iron Dwarves), Sails of glory, X-wing, Dreadball (Humans and Dwarves), Check your six. Star Wars Armada.

Grahame

Well - what if the unit that caused you to run away is destroyed? Does that mean you stop retreating? I think we are in danger of disappearing down a rabbit hole with this one! Just keep to what we already do - units retreat along the line they started with.
Grahame

Carl Fisher

Quote from: Grahame on November 17, 2021, 11:48:39 amWell - what if the unit that caused you to run away is destroyed? Does that mean you stop retreating? I think we are in danger of disappearing down a rabbit hole with this one! Just keep to what we already do - units retreat along the line they started with.
Grahame
So follow Newton's First Law of Motion. I assume if a further Morale test is required for example from Shooting or Melee then they change direction, away from this new Force!

I also note the rules state:


A Wavering unit that receives another Wavering result loses a model of the owner's choice in addition to retreating.

This point is  not qualified, so it appears I have been playing Follow-up incorrectly, as it would force an additional casualty, when the Wavering unit retreats again!

My mistake, but then it helps my opponent not me so...
Games Played (Armies): WAB + WaC (IER Roman, Early Saxons and variants, Normans), WFB (Empire), 40K (Spacemarines), Uncharted Seas (Empire, Shroud Mages), WAB English Civil War (English!), Operation Squad (British) SAGA (Normans, Jomsvikings), Mordheim, Wings of War/Glory WWI, Dreadball, Chain of Command (British), Frostgrave, Sails of Glory and many others!!

Andy Miller

I think the newtonian approach is how we've all played it and makes sense.
@Carl, you are right a failed morale on a wavering unit is an "extra" casualty. Possible not come up before, as Parliamentary forces would never attack an enemy that was running away  :angel:
I do agree with your read of it though.
ECW Parliamentarian armies. Judge Dredd (Judges/Cal 2k+pts, Ape gang), FoW (MidWar German armour 2k pts, MidWar Afrika Corps 2k pts, LateWar German 4k+pts), Bolt Action (German, US Infantry), OpSquad (Panzer Grenadiers, Falschirmjaeger, Brit Inf), Dux Brit (Saxons), WoW (a small airforce), Fantasy (High Elves, Brets), Dystopian (FSA), Uncharted seas (Iron Dwarves), Sails of glory, X-wing, Dreadball (Humans and Dwarves), Check your six. Star Wars Armada.

Carl Fisher

November 17, 2021, 03:47:42 pm #10 Last Edit: November 17, 2021, 03:49:32 pm by Carl Fisher
Quote from: Andy Miller on November 17, 2021, 03:42:06 pmI think the newtonian approach is how we've all played it and makes sense.
@Carl, you are right a failed morale on a wavering unit is an "extra" casualty. Possible not come up before, as Parliamentary forces would never attack an enemy that was running away  :angel:
I do agree with your read of it though.
We Cavaliers do not get a choice!

That's why my Aggressive Gallopers are now no longer Aggressive!
Games Played (Armies): WAB + WaC (IER Roman, Early Saxons and variants, Normans), WFB (Empire), 40K (Spacemarines), Uncharted Seas (Empire, Shroud Mages), WAB English Civil War (English!), Operation Squad (British) SAGA (Normans, Jomsvikings), Mordheim, Wings of War/Glory WWI, Dreadball, Chain of Command (British), Frostgrave, Sails of Glory and many others!!

Andy Miller

@ Grahame,
"Having refought the civil war for many years"    -   Let it go! (350+ years is too long)
 :cheesy:
ECW Parliamentarian armies. Judge Dredd (Judges/Cal 2k+pts, Ape gang), FoW (MidWar German armour 2k pts, MidWar Afrika Corps 2k pts, LateWar German 4k+pts), Bolt Action (German, US Infantry), OpSquad (Panzer Grenadiers, Falschirmjaeger, Brit Inf), Dux Brit (Saxons), WoW (a small airforce), Fantasy (High Elves, Brets), Dystopian (FSA), Uncharted seas (Iron Dwarves), Sails of glory, X-wing, Dreadball (Humans and Dwarves), Check your six. Star Wars Armada.