Peterborough Wargames Club

Games => Campaigns => War Of The Roses Campaign 2022 => Topic started by: Carl Fisher on December 04, 2021, 05:48:56 pm

Title: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Carl Fisher on December 04, 2021, 05:48:56 pm
Here is my one page proposal for a Wars of the Roses Campaign for 2022, for consideration at the forthcoming AGM!

Attached is a more detailed document including proposed army lists and house rules for the campaign.


The campaign will cover an unknown fighting season early in the period of Civil War and unrest in England known commonly as the Wars of the Roses. 
Henry VI is a weak king, subject to periods of sickness. The country is currently ruled in his name by a council lead by the Duke of Summerset and the Queen Margaret of Anjou. Opposing them are Richard, Duke of York and the Earl of Warwick. Henry Tudor is still a boy. 
Each noble will need to decide which side they support. As they both struggle to control the King. 
We will use the Lion Rampant rules set by Daniel Mersey as the basis, with some adaptations to allow for the period, including new troop types and some house rules. 
Each player will represent a minor noble, and will mainly draw forces from his own household and retinue, with some limited mercenaries available.  
As an alternative you can choose to be a Mercenary Captain, or a Scottish or Irish Lord who has chosen to get involved for one or other side, for pay (or plunder). 
In addition to the standard Lion Rampant rulebook we will add the rules from Pikeman's Lament for Leader progression, and for catastrophic activation rolls (double 1 or double 6). 
Retinues will be of a slightly larger size of 30pt to allow for the more common upgrades needed for this period. 
You may create a Retinue of 40pts to allow for varied deployments and a 4pt reserve. The reserve may only be drawn from undeployed troops of unit size 4pts or less and can only be a single unit. 
Each noble or captain is seeking their own benefit, and the to this end may find themselves on either side a s the conflict continues. The King will be controlled by the faction that has possession of him at the end of the evening. 
The campaign will start after the completion of the 1645 ECW campaign, and will run monthly over 5 or 6 sessions. 
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Mike Whitaker on December 04, 2021, 06:00:59 pm
More stuff to paint.

Sign me up.
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Martin S-C on December 04, 2021, 08:13:01 pm
Will this be map based or a kind of "league" system like the PL campaign?
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Carl Fisher on December 04, 2021, 10:33:05 pm
Quote from: Martin S-C on December 04, 2021, 08:13:01 pmWill this be map based or a kind of "league" system like the PL campaign?
Still to be decided, I will be investigating the mechanism over the next few weeks.
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Chris Davies on December 05, 2021, 04:49:36 pm
Who does the Earl of Cadbury support? And Lord Bourneville?
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Andy Mellor on December 05, 2021, 06:51:30 pm
As the Earl of Mackintosh based in Halifax, was a big rival and had support of Yorkie I'd say they fought on the wrong side.
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Tom G on December 06, 2021, 11:19:27 am
Mercenary Captain please.
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Andy Miller on December 06, 2021, 04:45:26 pm
I'm in. I'd like to try a couple of games and paint some troops before declaring  :wink:
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Martin S-C on December 06, 2021, 05:13:56 pm
What scale figures please Carl?
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Carl Fisher on December 06, 2021, 05:16:57 pm
Quote from: Martin S-C on December 06, 2021, 05:13:56 pmWhat scale figures please Carl?
28mm.
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: tony on December 06, 2021, 05:42:01 pm
I'd be in
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Pippa Peile on December 10, 2021, 12:19:50 pm
Ash and I would be in. 
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: AndyHawes on January 13, 2022, 12:37:04 am
I'm definitely up for this - Earl Bernard Deliasmith of Norfolk. Allegiance as yet unknown. Yellow and green livery with the banner of a yellow canary on a green field.  :cool:
Order going in to Perry miniatures tomorrow!!
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Andy Miller on January 13, 2022, 08:43:57 pm
Mr Hawes,
Would that be the Earl Bernard of Deliasmith who has the squires Matt Hews and Beau Tiffle, with the drummer from Turkey?
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: AndyHawes on January 13, 2022, 08:50:52 pm
Mr Miller, you are indeed correct, sir!
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Andy Mac on January 13, 2022, 10:40:11 pm
I'm in although my plans to create a mercenary Lord of Isles force has been scuppered by the army lists 😢. Will have to think of a plan B!!
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Carl Fisher on January 15, 2022, 05:24:35 pm
Quote from: Andy Miller on January 13, 2022, 08:43:57 pmMr Hawes,
Would that be the Earl Bernard of Deliasmith who has the squires Matt Hews and Beau Tiffle, with the drummer from Turkey?

Hope they do better than the Canaries are at the moment!
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Carl Fisher on January 15, 2022, 05:30:27 pm
For those who are interested, I have an original copy of the Kingmaker board game. We will use this as the basis of a campaign map.

The aim of the campaign will be to gain control/influence over or eliminate the main contenders for the throne.
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Andrew Riley on January 16, 2022, 11:10:50 am
Carl - if you need a second copy (spare cards or something) let me know. I have a one also - sadly never played it. But the rules for battle looked quite neat and tidy. Bought 15mm men-at-arms to paint and stick on the counters but never got round to that either. Looking forward to the campaign.
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Mike Whitaker on January 16, 2022, 04:09:36 pm
What have folks settled on for a basing standard?
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Carl Fisher on January 16, 2022, 06:33:25 pm
Quote from: Mike Whitaker on January 16, 2022, 04:09:36 pmWhat have folks settled on for a basing standard?
I used 20mm square basing for my WotR army.

However my ECW army uses 1p bases.

Both are then deployed on Warbases movement trays, either 6*2 or 3*2 X 2 for units of 12 models.

For horse I stick to 25*50, but I do like the look of the losenge bases used by Baron War, but for the present I just stick to rectangles.

For Artillery I have custom Warbases bases to hold the 4 crew on pennies.

Note this works for both Lion Rampant and Nevermind the Billhooks!
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Rob Farley on January 17, 2022, 06:22:41 pm
I like the look of the new conquistador miniatures from Wargames Atlantic. Would these be suitable for use as European mercenaries, or are they too contemporary?
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Carl Fisher on January 17, 2022, 08:07:56 pm
Quote from: Rob Farley on January 17, 2022, 06:22:41 pmI like the look of the new conquistador miniatures from Wargames Atlantic. Would these be suitable for use as European mercenaries, or are they too contemporary?
Sadly about 100 years later. Would suit Border Reivers or Elizabethans perfectly.

They do look nice however!
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: AndyHawes on January 22, 2022, 04:12:21 pm
Quote from: Mike Whitaker on January 16, 2022, 04:09:36 pmWhat have folks settled on for a basing standard?

I'm doing '3, 2, 1' basing (as recommended in Pikeman's Lament) using 20mm as a basis, so each unit of 12 has 2 of 40x40 bases with 3 models, 2 of 20x40 with 2 models and 2 of 20x20 with 1 model. Cavalry has units of 6 with 2 of 50x50 with 2 models on and 2 of 25x50 with 1 model on. Should speed up movement a bit and as I'm using the teeny tiny super-slight Perry Plastics, I felt that 20mm was a better bet than 25mm as the basis...
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Rob Brady on January 25, 2022, 08:59:09 am
I would be interested, what are the time scales to get a army together?
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Mike Whitaker on January 25, 2022, 09:05:44 am
Quote from: Rob Brady on January 25, 2022, 08:59:09 amI would be interested, what are the time scales to get a army together?

You have till May :)
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Carl Fisher on January 26, 2022, 03:59:53 pm
I have had some questions about how best to form a Retinue using a minimum of Perry Boxes - here is a suggestion based on the basic Noble Retinue.

This uses 2 boxes of WotR foot.

Using the maximum 18 billmen per box and 18 archers,

Gives 

2x Retinue Archers (expert) 12 points
2x Retinue Billmen 12pts
1x Foot men at arms 6pts (use the armoured command)

1x Militia Billmen 5pts
1x Militia Archers 4pts

Total 39pts

If you want some Scurrors and mtd men at arms, then the cheapest solution is a box of Light Horse, split them with the more armoured bodies as men at arms, and use some of the fuller helmets from all sets, use the lighter armoured as Scurrors! Perhaps enhance the difference by using the Lance arms only for the men at arms.

Obviously if you add a box of mercenaries as well your options multiply, remember the mercenary box can be used to create additional Billmen instead of pikes (12 halberd/bill heads are included).

You often see deals for three packs of Perry plastics.

Hope this helps the newbies to the period.

Obviously if you have other armies then a bit of subbing will be allowed, as long as it is obvious, 100 years war armies aren't too off, plus some of the older Warhammer Empire troops don't look to bad, a little later but not impossible! Likewise any Landsknecht armies will sub fine for Mercenaries. 

As long as it is obvious what troop type they are. If in doubt just ask!
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: tony on January 26, 2022, 08:09:04 pm
Reading up a little bit said that their was German/Swiss mercenary in the war if the oses so instead off buying more models can I use some of my Swiss, which in fact are old wargames foundry medieval minis
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Tom G on January 26, 2022, 11:11:49 pm
Quote from: Carl Fisher on January 26, 2022, 03:59:53 pmI have had some questions about how best to form a Retinue using a minimum of Perry Boxes - here is a suggestion based on the basic Noble Retinue.

This uses 2 boxes of WotR foot.

Using the maximum 18 billmen per box and 18 archers,

Gives

2x Retinue Archers (expert) 12 points
2x Retinue Billmen 12pts
1x Foot men at arms 6pts (use the armoured command)

1x Militia Billmen 5pts
1x Militia Archers 4pts

Total 39pts

If you want some Scurrors and mtd men at arms, then the cheapest solution is a box of Light Horse, split them with the more armoured bodies as men at arms, and use some of the fuller helmets from all sets, use the lighter armoured as Scurrors! Perhaps enhance the difference by using the Lance arms only for the men at arms.

Obviously if you add a box of mercenaries as well your options multiply, remember the mercenary box can be used to create additional Billmen instead of pikes (12 halberd/bill heads are included).

You often see deals for three packs of Perry plastics.

Hope this helps the newbies to the period.

Obviously if you have other armies then a bit of subbing will be allowed, as long as it is obvious, 100 years war armies aren't too off, plus some of the older Warhammer Empire troops don't look to bad, a little later but not impossible! Likewise any Landsknecht armies will sub fine for Mercenaries.

As long as it is obvious what troop type they are. If in doubt just ask!

Thanks Carl.

I has just occurred to me that you do get a lot of spare arms/heads/billhooks so a bits swap is always an option if someone needs a few extra bills ect. I have a few spare bits somewhere.
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Andy Mellor on February 15, 2022, 03:42:51 pm
Lion Rampant 2 Rules coming out in July. Should have some new scenarios to look at?
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Carl Fisher on February 15, 2022, 05:52:53 pm
Quote from: Andy Mellor on February 15, 2022, 03:42:51 pmLion Rampant 2 Rules coming out in July. Should have some new scenarios to look at?
I have already pre-ordered it on Amazon!
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Tom G on February 15, 2022, 06:12:47 pm
Are we sticking with version 1 for the campaign (just the ruleset not the scenarios and bits)?
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Carl Fisher on February 15, 2022, 06:15:23 pm
Quote from: Tom G on February 15, 2022, 06:12:47 pmAre we sticking with version 1 for the campaign (just the ruleset not the scenarios and bits)?
I may review some of the Campaign Rules, but no one will need the new book to play the campaign.
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Tom G on February 15, 2022, 06:24:38 pm
Quote from: Carl Fisher on February 15, 2022, 06:15:23 pm
Quote from: Tom G on February 15, 2022, 06:12:47 pmAre we sticking with version 1 for the campaign (just the ruleset not the scenarios and bits)?
I may review some of the Campaign Rules, but no one will need the new book to play the campaign.

Cool, thanks.
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Andy Miller on February 22, 2022, 06:40:34 pm
This might be useful as a crib sheet of stats. It's basic and doesn't include all of the house rules. WoR Stats sheet.docx
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Andrew Riley on February 22, 2022, 07:41:58 pm
Great summary sheet.
A humble plea to allow all Leaders to have the skill No.7 Commanding: Each turn you may reroll one failed Move, Attack or Shoot test within 12" of your Leader's model.
It is still incumbent on the Leader to remember this skill during the heat of battle, something I failed 4 times yesterday evening.


Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Carl Fisher on March 05, 2022, 05:56:58 pm
Attached are first cut rules, for Leader Skills tables - both initial and promotions, for the WotR campaign. Also a revised Double 1/6 table for us with WotR.

Feel free to try them out during any test games.
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Grahame on March 07, 2022, 02:49:51 pm
Excellent ideas but could we have these in black & white please.
Grahame
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Carl Fisher on March 07, 2022, 03:35:38 pm
Quote from: Grahame on March 07, 2022, 02:49:51 pmExcellent ideas but could we have these in black & white please.
Grahame
Attached single document, B&W plus colour (blues).
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Carl Fisher on March 11, 2022, 12:03:11 pm
Just a quick update as a result of some early test play.

1) Retinue lists, maximum of one unit option, points raised to 16pt, to allow for larger points value.

2) Total Retinue point increased to 42 (from 40).

3) Any 4pt or 6pt unit of Archers can be split to 2x2pt Biddowers, not all entries include this currently, this is just an error!

Also you can choose to only include one of the two in your 30pt list!

4) Biddowers can never use Leaders skill, even if the original unit would qualify.

Finally a clarification on LoS.

You cannot shoot through your own units, so you must have a clear shot from more than one member of your unit to more than one member of the target past the intervening unit, still counts as cover. 

You can shoot through enemy units, still count as cover, but must allow for target priority. Again cover applies.

Where a shot would result in two lots of cover, for example a unit behind a hedge, being shot past a friendly unit, then no shot is possible, deemed too difficult!

Please try these in your games and report back!
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Grahame on March 11, 2022, 07:09:32 pm
Sorry Carl but I don't understand 1)
Grahame
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Carl Fisher on March 11, 2022, 07:21:22 pm
Quote from: Grahame on March 11, 2022, 07:09:32 pmSorry Carl but I don't understand 1)
Grahame
There is a limit in the rulebook of 12pts or 4 units maximum of any Troop Type (including upgrades and options). This is increased to 16pts.
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Rob Farley on March 11, 2022, 07:53:31 pm
Quote from: Carl Fisher on March 11, 2022, 07:21:22 pm
Quote from: Grahame on March 11, 2022, 07:09:32 pmSorry Carl but I don't understand 1)
Grahame
There is a limit in the rulebook of 12pts or 4 units maximum of any Troop Type (including upgrades and options). This is increased to 16pts.
Presumably this is based on the original unit type from the LR rulebook? So in the Household Retinue list, Retinue Billmen and Militia Billmen would count as different unit types (Foot Serjeants and Foot Yeomen) and you could have up to 16 points of each but Militia Billmen and Mercenary Pikemen would count as the same type of unit (both Foot Yeomen) so only 16 points combined.
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Rob Farley on March 11, 2022, 07:55:31 pm
Quote from: Carl Fisher on March 11, 2022, 12:03:11 pm3) Any 4pt or 6pt unit of Archers can be split to 2x2pt Biddowers, not all entries include this currently, this is just an error!
Does this also apply to 4pt crossbow units?
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Carl Fisher on March 11, 2022, 10:19:46 pm
Quote from: Rob Farley on March 11, 2022, 07:53:31 pm
Quote from: Carl Fisher on March 11, 2022, 07:21:22 pm
Quote from: Grahame on March 11, 2022, 07:09:32 pmSorry Carl but I don't understand 1)
Grahame
There is a limit in the rulebook of 12pts or 4 units maximum of any Troop Type (including upgrades and options). This is increased to 16pts.
Presumably this is based on the original unit type from the LR rulebook? So in the Household Retinue list, Retinue Billmen and Militia Billmen would count as different unit types (Foot Serjeants and Foot Yeomen) and you could have up to 16 points of each but Militia Billmen and Mercenary Pikemen would count as the same type of unit (both Foot Yeomen) so only 16 points combined.
For the campaign the rule applies to entries in the Retinue Lists! Hope that is not too confusing. So Militia Billmen and Mercenary Pikemen are separate!
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Carl Fisher on March 11, 2022, 10:20:56 pm
Quote from: Rob Farley on March 11, 2022, 07:55:31 pm
Quote from: Carl Fisher on March 11, 2022, 12:03:11 pm3) Any 4pt or 6pt unit of Archers can be split to 2x2pt Biddowers, not all entries include this currently, this is just an error!
Does this also apply to 4pt crossbow units?
No, Crossbows are not Archers! More importantly were not used in this way in period.
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Rob Farley on March 11, 2022, 10:32:36 pm
Quote from: Carl Fisher on March 11, 2022, 10:19:46 pm
Quote from: Rob Farley on March 11, 2022, 07:53:31 pm
Quote from: Carl Fisher on March 11, 2022, 07:21:22 pm
Quote from: Grahame on March 11, 2022, 07:09:32 pmSorry Carl but I don't understand 1)
Grahame
There is a limit in the rulebook of 12pts or 4 units maximum of any Troop Type (including upgrades and options). This is increased to 16pts.
Presumably this is based on the original unit type from the LR rulebook? So in the Household Retinue list, Retinue Billmen and Militia Billmen would count as different unit types (Foot Serjeants and Foot Yeomen) and you could have up to 16 points of each but Militia Billmen and Mercenary Pikemen would count as the same type of unit (both Foot Yeomen) so only 16 points combined.
For the campaign the rule applies to entries in the Retinue Lists! Hope that is not too confusing. So Militia Billmen and Mercenary Pikemen are separate!
That actually makes it much more straightforward.
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: AndyHawes on March 17, 2022, 07:03:03 pm
It is with regret that I have to pull out of the WoTR campaign. This is due to my access to my son changing - I have to have him on Mondays now so will no longer be able to attend the club for anything. Sorry about this!
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Carl Fisher on March 17, 2022, 10:35:47 pm
Quote from: AndyHawes on March 17, 2022, 07:03:03 pmIt is with regret that I have to pull out of the WoTR campaign. This is due to my access to my son changing - I have to have him on Mondays now so will no longer be able to attend the club for anything. Sorry about this!
Sorry to hear that. I was looking forward to facing your newly painted force. Perhaps we could get together for a game sometime!
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Andy Miller on March 19, 2022, 07:55:00 am
AndyH,
Bitter sweet news Andy. The forces De Canary will be missed. If you ever want to run them out on a different night  I can always host, similar to Carl's offer.
Andy
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: AndyHawes on March 19, 2022, 11:56:21 pm
Andy and Carl - yes, absolutely! I'll keep in touch and we can definitely sort a game or two out! Thank you!
Title: Re: Wars of the Roses campaign 2022.
Post by: Carl Fisher on March 26, 2022, 10:36:26 am
This thread has now been moved to a Sub-board for the campaign. I have now added a new thread just for sign up, please just add your name to that thread if you are interested in joining this campaign from May.

Please keep this thread for general discussions on the campaign.