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1645 Pikeman's Lament

Started by Grahame, March 04, 2020, 03:48:28 pm

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Grahame

October 19, 2021, 08:21:17 pm #120 Last Edit: October 19, 2021, 08:31:24 pm by Grahame
For the previous two campaigns the understanding accepted by players was that given in the rules - units block line of  sight and can obscure units behind them and commanded shot cannot be shot at from over 12 " away. It is not more complicated than that. We will not be going down the rabbit hole of over thinking PL. If you have a problem with commanded shot (or horse or dragons or anything else being in the way) then manoeuvre into a better position or shoot them to remove them. We are playing the rules as they have been up till now. Discussion ended.
Grahame

Martin S-C

I asked the query on the Pikeman's Lament Facebook group and one of the rules authors responded. Here is his reply:

Author: Dala Uppror

Good evening seems like you had a ongoing discussion when I was at work, Also thanks to Alamo that pointed it out. I have read all the posts an Will Try to give a answer, hopefully i have got all questions right, If i still missunderstod anything please Ask Again (english is not my Native language).

In the example with Commanded Shot more than 12" away but in front in of other troops we just treat them as cover for the unit behind if targeted by shooting, as it is too gamey and not in the intention of the rule to use the Commanded Shot Hard to target rule to prevent the enemy to shoot at your other units at long range. They should provide cover at long range and soak-up the attacks at close range.

Hope this settle it all and that you Will have Good and entertaining games to come.
Best regards Michael


https://www.facebook.com/groups/1853126298232065/posts/3101313360080013/?comment_id=3102334873311195&reply_comment_id=3102428013301881&notif_id=1634716821934558&notif_t=group_comment
Cheers
Martin

Ne Plus Ultra - My 18thC Imagi-Nations Campaign, 1/72nd Plastics, Old School Rules

Interests: ECW, WSS, WAS, SYW, 18th C imagi-nations, Victorian Wars, Post-WWI what ifs, WWII (Command Decision)... most other periods involving gunpowder!

Grahame

October 24, 2021, 03:45:55 pm #122 Last Edit: October 24, 2021, 06:32:19 pm by Grahame
Martin - I refer you to this - Posting on Pikeman's Lament official forum:
Question asked by albert moulton oct 18 2017
"Some of the players wonder out loud, "How does it make sense that 6 guys running around in the open can 'screen' the big unit marching behind it?"
Answer given Oct 23 2017
"Indeed they can screening a unit behind them, that is the basic use of skirmishers, to screening the main battle units.
If you commanded shot unit docent cover the entire unit and arenĀ“t within charge distance and The enemy unit has at least line of Sight to one of your minis in the main unit they can target it with shooting BUT it will count as in cover, due to not more than half can see more than half, i.e the Skirmish unit count as cover for the unit behind."
Best regards Michael
I took this  as the definitive ruling when this question first came up during 1643 and that is how we have played it since and will continue to play it this way for 1645. This matter was settled two years ago and will not be changed.
Grahame

Grahame

November 1645 - to be played on the 15th. Please confirm you will be there. All the games are based on the Missions in the rule book. Challenges will be allowed but no special orders. The terrain will be provided and there will be pre-drawn maps. Victory points will be adjusted in some missions. Time called or victory achieved rather than number of turns. The games are as follows:
                      Attacker          Defender
King                  C  F  J           B  E  G
Parliament            B  E  G           C  F  J
Who is on which table and attacker or defender is to be decided on the day after seeing the tables. Your Lord General will lead this and I will take no part in those discussions.
I would suggest that players have a look at the missions and think about which ones suit their army best.
Grahame

Andy Miller

I'll be there.
....... and what he said about reading and choosing. Parliament, please send me a first and second choice as a personal mail and I'll try to make it fit. Royalists may do the same if they wish  :evil:
Andy
ECW Parliamentarian armies. Judge Dredd (Judges/Cal 2k+pts, Ape gang), FoW (MidWar German armour 2k pts, MidWar Afrika Corps 2k pts, LateWar German 4k+pts), Bolt Action (German, US Infantry), OpSquad (Panzer Grenadiers, Falschirmjaeger, Brit Inf), Dux Brit (Saxons), WoW (a small airforce), Fantasy (High Elves, Brets), Dystopian (FSA), Uncharted seas (Iron Dwarves), Sails of glory, X-wing, Dreadball (Humans and Dwarves), Check your six. Star Wars Armada.

Martin S-C

Hi Grahame

After careful consideration I have decided to withdraw from your 1645 campaign. I find I cannot agree with your ruling on firing through units. The rules as written on page 34 are very clear that all units can be fired through even if they cover the whole frontage of a unit behind them and while there may well be a valid argument for disallowing musket fire through a small unit of dispersed commanded shot due to the short ranges involved I find I simply cannot accept in any form that the gun crew of an artillery piece would be unable to see and target a unit of pikemen or cavalry that was behind a dispersed unit of shot. It makes no sense in any set of wargame rules I have ever played and makes no sense in reality.

Your implementation of this rule effectively lobotomises field guns and that's an unbalancing issue I cannot accept.

I wish you good luck with the campaign and I also offer my sincere apologies to all the players.

Kindest regards
Martin
Cheers
Martin

Ne Plus Ultra - My 18thC Imagi-Nations Campaign, 1/72nd Plastics, Old School Rules

Interests: ECW, WSS, WAS, SYW, 18th C imagi-nations, Victorian Wars, Post-WWI what ifs, WWII (Command Decision)... most other periods involving gunpowder!

Andy Mellor

Quote from: Martin S-C on November 07, 2021, 12:57:02 pmHi Grahame

After careful consideration I have decided to withdraw from your 1645 campaign. I find I cannot agree with your ruling on firing through units. The rules as written on page 34 are very clear that all units can be fired through even if they cover the whole frontage of a unit behind them and while there may well be a valid argument for disallowing musket fire through a small unit of dispersed commanded shot due to the short ranges involved I find I simply cannot accept in any form that the gun crew of an artillery piece would be unable to see and target a unit of pikemen or cavalry that was behind a dispersed unit of shot. It makes no sense in any set of wargame rules I have ever played and makes no sense in reality.

Your implementation of this rule effectively lobotomises field guns and that's an unbalancing issue I cannot accept.

I wish you good luck with the campaign and I also offer my sincere apologies to all the players.

Kindest regards
Martin

This seems a shame, would Grahame not let you re-write your army list to not include field guns?

Grahame

Please confirm you will be attending next week. The list of missions will be adjusted to take account of the imbalance in the two sides now Martin has withdrawn from 1645. Assuming everyone turns up then I will take a back seat and so there will be 5 games rather than 6 but you won't know till Monday which one has been dropped from the list.
Grahame

Carl Fisher

Quote from: Grahame on November 08, 2021, 09:21:52 amPlease confirm you will be attending next week. The list of missions will be adjusted to take account of the imbalance in the two sides now Martin has withdrawn from 1645. Assuming everyone turns up then I will take a back seat and so there will be 5 games rather than 6 but you won't know till Monday which one has been dropped from the list.
Grahame

I will be there.
Games Played (Armies): WAB + WaC (IER Roman, Early Saxons and variants, Normans), WFB (Empire), 40K (Spacemarines), Uncharted Seas (Empire, Shroud Mages), WAB English Civil War (English!), Operation Squad (British) SAGA (Normans, Jomsvikings), Mordheim, Wings of War/Glory WWI, Dreadball, Chain of Command (British), Frostgrave, Sails of Glory and many others!!

Andrew Riley

Dear all - I would very much like to attend - but have just completed 3 european business trips in the last 4-5 weeks. I have a Day2 Covid test on Saturday and will share result with the chairman and willingly abide by any concerns eg wear a mask for the entire evening. But I don't want anyone to be uncomfortable so let Mike know anonymously and he can convey these to me.

After Montrose's last embarrassing outing and rolling more sixes with 2xD6 white activation dice than I was comfortable with, I conducted a trial and indeed after 50 rolls on carpet got the following:
Sixes 23% Fives 14% Fours 13% Threes 19% Twos 14% Ones 17% Scary !
On sound scientific advice (Grahame) I continued the experiment. However, I thought increase the variances, right hand, left hand  and on a hard surface (wargames table).
Another 150 rolls:
Sixes 37% Fives 29% Fours 33% Threes 33% Twos 30% Ones 39% not satisfied with the perfectly randomness of these white dice, I offer them for scrutiny and new ownership (or destruction). I shall use blue ones in future.

Pippa Peile

Quote from: Grahame on November 08, 2021, 09:21:52 amPlease confirm you will be attending next week. The list of missions will be adjusted to take account of the imbalance in the two sides now Martin has withdrawn from 1645. Assuming everyone turns up then I will take a back seat and so there will be 5 games rather than 6 but you won't know till Monday which one has been dropped from the list.
Grahame

Can't remember if I said or not but Ash and I will definitely be there.

Andy Mellor

Quote from: Andrew Riley on November 12, 2021, 11:21:18 pmAnother 150 rolls:
Sixes 37% Fives 29% Fours 33% Threes 33% Twos 30% Ones 39% not satisfied with the perfectly randomness of these white dice, I offer them for scrutiny and new ownership (or destruction). I shall use blue ones in future.


Very dodgy dice rolls as that adds up to 200%! Even so it's still more ones than sixes. Onto glory or quick rout?

Rob Farley

Quote from: Andrew Riley on November 12, 2021, 11:21:18 pmSixes 37% Fives 29% Fours 33% Threes 33% Twos 30% Ones 39% not satisfied with the perfectly randomness of these white dice, I offer them for scrutiny and new ownership (or destruction). I shall use blue ones in future.
Will you be performing the same level of preemptive testing on the blue dice? In order to put any fears to rest when they turn out to be even luckier than the white ones?
Current games (and armies) played: Rumbleslam, Street Fighter Miniatures, Saga, Marvel Crisis Protocol, Gaslands, Lion/Dragon Rampant, Frostgrave, Stargrave, Bolt Action & Operation Squad (Desert Rats, Communist Chinese, Russians, partisans, Americans, Finns, Italian Paras), Judge Dredd Miniatures, Mobile Frame Zero, Necromunda (Pit Slaves, Escher), Wings of War (WWI and WWII), Mordheim, Warpath

Current Projects: Various halflings, Rumbleslam wrestlers, Superheroes, Sludge Samurai

Andy Miller

Andrew,
Keep going with the testing, it's a well known fact that you will wear out the luck (test that!).
I'll be there, I've got to I'm picking up Grahame.
Andy
ECW Parliamentarian armies. Judge Dredd (Judges/Cal 2k+pts, Ape gang), FoW (MidWar German armour 2k pts, MidWar Afrika Corps 2k pts, LateWar German 4k+pts), Bolt Action (German, US Infantry), OpSquad (Panzer Grenadiers, Falschirmjaeger, Brit Inf), Dux Brit (Saxons), WoW (a small airforce), Fantasy (High Elves, Brets), Dystopian (FSA), Uncharted seas (Iron Dwarves), Sails of glory, X-wing, Dreadball (Humans and Dwarves), Check your six. Star Wars Armada.

Andrew Riley

Thanks guys - I knew I could rely on you! Yes writing late at night so had divided by 200 rolls without thinking further. I was rolling 2xD6 at a time and recorded each dice result as a pair not the combined score, so 400 rolls.
Here is the raw data:
Sixes: #74 Fives: #57 Fours: #65 Threes: #66 Twos: #60 Ones: #78
...and about 30 doubles:
Sixes: #6 Fives: #3 Fours: #4 Threes: #4 Twos: #5 Ones: #7

Hmmm! I think a cyclic robotic throwing arm and digital image capture is the way to go...