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Pikeman's Lament ECW campaign

Started by tony, January 12, 2019, 03:18:21 pm

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Andy Mellor

May 04, 2019, 04:54:26 pm #30 Last Edit: May 04, 2019, 04:59:10 pm by Andy Mellor
Quote from: Tom G on May 04, 2019, 02:01:03 pm
Request for house rule:

Could we please have house rule on commanded shot blocking line of sight for cannons.

Last campaign entire armies were moved up behind screens of commanded shot which cannot be targeted outside of 12".

This meant cannon was totally useless against an entire army moving up. If commanded shot are supposed to be difficult to target because they are few in number, make use of cover and duck and dive how are they blocking line of sight to a large body of men behind them?

Could we have a house ruling to make this more flavourful please?



I'd be happy to limit the range of cannons to 12" and not have to hide behind command shot?

Or just limit choice to regimental guns which can be upgrade to field when attacker can have forlorn hope during sieges, then command shot could only provide cover for units behind?

Gary Martin

Grahame
Quick question:

1644 isn't trotters as a tactic becoming old hat? Cromwell had trained his horse on more modern tactics, which I think was seeing greater use of similar tactics to the Royalists, with maybe a bit more discipline. Particularly across the Field Armies.
Gary Martin
'I do not fear an army of lions led by sheep, I fear an army of sheep led by a lion'. Alexander the Great

Figures: 28mm Imperial Roman and Ancient Britons 700 figures ish, 28mm Napoleonic French, Brits, Portugese and Dutch-Belgian, several thousand based for General de Brigade but work for most rules, 28mm WW2 German, Russian, British and US about company of each with vehicles 1 to 1. Large army's of 15mm Napoleonic most nations based to Napoleons Battles but fairly flexible.

Carl Fisher

May 05, 2019, 10:07:47 am #32 Last Edit: May 05, 2019, 10:24:36 am by Carl Fisher
Quote from: Gary Martin on May 04, 2019, 05:54:26 pm
Grahame
Quick question:

1644 isn't trotters as a tactic becoming old hat? Cromwell had trained his horse on more modern tactics, which I think was seeing greater use of similar tactics to the Royalists, with maybe a bit more discipline. Particularly across the Field Armies.


Not really, new developments in Parliamentary cavalry tactics really are not fully developed until 1645, with the advent of the New Model Army, and the removal of the old guard from command of the army by the Self Denying Ordinance.

Cromwell it is true was more aggressive in his tactics, but even at Marston Moor his cavalry it is the counter charge of the Royalists against his more controlled attack that gave him success against Byron.

However he was still the exception!

Having said all that, I do agree that Trotters poorly represent Parliamentary cavalry tactics after 1643. There is no evidence at all that the Caracole for example was ever used, in fact there is little evidence that they were even trained to use it.

Pistols and Carbines were still used to receive a charge, rather than counter charge however.

Perhaps remove Caracole from Trotters but improve attack to +4, would better reflect the majority situation in 1644.

By 1645 yes all cavalry would be some form of Gallopers, though only Royalists would be Aggressive.

Games Played (Armies): WAB + WaC (IER Roman, Early Saxons and variants, Normans), WFB (Empire), 40K (Spacemarines), Uncharted Seas (Empire, Shroud Mages), WAB English Civil War (English!), Operation Squad (British) SAGA (Normans, Jomsvikings), Mordheim, Wings of War/Glory WWI, Dreadball, Chain of Command (British), Frostgrave, Sails of Glory and many others!!

Carl Fisher

Quote from: Tom G on May 04, 2019, 02:01:03 pm
Request for house rule:

Could we please have house rule on commanded shot blocking line of sight for cannons.

Last campaign entire armies were moved up behind screens of commanded shot which cannot be targeted outside of 12".

This meant cannon was totally useless against an entire army moving up. If commanded shot are supposed to be difficult to target because they are few in number, make use of cover and duck and dive how are they blocking line of sight to a large body of men behind them?

Could we have a house ruling to make this more flavourful please?



Regimental guns would not waste shot while the Folorne Hope (skirmish screen) was out. Their limited fire power and range would be held back to support any defence when attack by pike blocks. So really it just adds extra punch to your muskets.

For field guns, with the extra range, these would be deployed to advantage on a high point behind the army, or in a defensive line and shoot over everyone's heads, including commanded shot.

Games Played (Armies): WAB + WaC (IER Roman, Early Saxons and variants, Normans), WFB (Empire), 40K (Spacemarines), Uncharted Seas (Empire, Shroud Mages), WAB English Civil War (English!), Operation Squad (British) SAGA (Normans, Jomsvikings), Mordheim, Wings of War/Glory WWI, Dreadball, Chain of Command (British), Frostgrave, Sails of Glory and many others!!

Tom G

Quote from: Carl Fisher on May 05, 2019, 10:41:17 am

Regimental guns would not waste shot while the Folorne Hope (skirmish screen) was out. Their limited fire power and range would be held back to support any defence when attack by pike blocks. So really it just adds extra punch to your muskets.

For field guns, with the extra range, these would be deployed to advantage on a high point behind the army, or in a defensive line and shoot over everyone's heads, including commanded shot.





Agreed the first paragraph makes total sense.

The second paragraph is exactly what I mean. Its only really an issue in the siege game and with field guns not being able to shoot at all until the enemy is within 12". We might as well just line our armies up 12" from each other at the start instead of waiting 3 or 4 turns for an invulnerable army to walk up the table. 

It's just an idea to make the siege game more fun and a bit more like an actual siege. Field guns aren't super weapons and they fire on a 8+ and are only going to get 1 or 2 shots off. The only reason to bring them is for fun and to have different forces represented. If I was just playing to win I would bring a field army or raiding party and not put myself at a disadvantage.

Tom G

Quote from: Andy Mellor on May 04, 2019, 04:54:26 pm

I'd be happy to limit the range of cannons to 12" and not have to hide behind command shot?

Or just limit choice to regimental guns which can be upgrade to field when attacker can have forlorn hope during sieges, then command shot could only provide cover for units behind?


It's more in just the siege game Andy. I don't mind commanded shot blocking in normal games.

Andy Miller

I'd read the whole 12" can not be targeted thing differently.
Even without getting into the nitty gritty of the rule wording, common sense would dictate that you can fire at the big block of men marching up the field. A small unit of "skirmishers" would not act as a shield against cannon balls, the shot would just go through?
Going back to the rules:
Hard to target - may only be targeted within 12", so not a viable unit to target outside this, fair enough. I guess to represent their slippery skirmish nature.
Shooting rules
1) Choose a target. Can't pick the commanded shot, I choose the pike block behind it! as long as it's in range, fine so far.
2) Line of sight. "Units in cover may be targeted, but units may not shoot at targets completely hidden behind trees/ buildings or other obscuring terrain. Models in your shooting unit do not block line of sight, but other units can"
Can the gun see the pike block, yes, does the Commanded shot block line of sight, no, WYSIWYG. Terrain point is not relevant. Key point, "other units can", this is "can" not "do". I read this as the commanded shot by their very diffuse nature "don't", in this case, block line of sight. That is the whole essence of "Hard to target", they are small and spread out.
3) "A target unit counts as in cover if the majority of the models are shielded from the majority of the shooting unit by other units - friend or foe"
Worst case scenario, the pike block gets cover from the commanded shot, but even them the key word here is "shielded". To a fair and sensible soul, shielded means get in they way of/ protect/ take the hit for. Can the commanded shot "shield", no, they can not shield the line of sight and they will not stand in the way and take the hit. The "hard to target" rule again, read with an attacker's slant, they can not offer themselves as a target outside 12". So they should not even count as cover?
4) The bit that has caused the issue. "A shooting unit may shoot through gaps between other units and/or terrain as long as there is at least a 3" gap to shoot through". This refers to a gap between two other entities, this is not the issue. The issue is can you shoot through commanded shot, not between them and something else.
In summary commanded shot do not, because of the hard to target rule shield the unit behind them. This fits with common sense too!

(just my two penneth worth)
Andy+
Judge Dredd (Judges/Cal 2k+pts, Ape gang), FoW (MidWar German armour 2k pts, MidWar Afrika Corps 2k pts, LateWar German 4k+pts), Bolt Action (German, US Infantry), OpSquad (Panzer Grenadiers, Falschirmjaeger, Brit Inf), Dux Brit (Saxons), WoW (a small airforce), Fantasy (High Elves, Brets), Dystopian (FSA), Uncharted seas (Iron Dwarves), Sails of glory, X-wing, Dreadball (Humans and Dwarves), Check your six. Star Wars Armada. ECW Parliamentarian army.

Andy Mellor


[/quote]

It's just an idea to make the siege game more fun and a bit more like an actual siege. Field guns aren't super weapons and they fire on a 8+ and are only going to get 1 or 2 shots off. The only reason to bring them is for fun and to have different forces represented. If I was just playing to win I would bring a field army or raiding party and not put myself at a disadvantage.
[/quote]

My concern would be that half way through the campaign, field guns could be firing on a 6+ with a re-roll, With a range of most of the table. At least regimental guns won't get many shots before contact?
This can destroy the morale of units hit (average 6-8 hits, 3-4 musketeers or cavalry dead) in a siege games you expect this, but in a normal battle artillery would be overpowering unless the terrain was quite close?

Command shot units are only 6" wide with poor morale and would need to be well forward to cover more than a couple of units, they can be "seen off" with Dragoon's or other command shot?

Carl Fisher

Quote from: Andy Mellor on May 05, 2019, 09:40:53 pm



It's just an idea to make the siege game more fun and a bit more like an actual siege. Field guns aren't super weapons and they fire on a 8+ and are only going to get 1 or 2 shots off. The only reason to bring them is for fun and to have different forces represented. If I was just playing to win I would bring a field army or raiding party and not put myself at a disadvantage.
[/quote]

My concern would be that half way through the campaign, field guns could be firing on a 6+ with a re-roll, With a range of most of the table. At least regimental guns won't get many shots before contact?
This can destroy the morale of units hit (average 6-8 hits, 3-4 musketeers or cavalry dead) in a siege games you expect this, but in a normal battle artillery would be overpowering unless the terrain was quite close?

Command shot units are only 6" wide with poor morale and would need to be well forward to cover more than a couple of units, they can be "seen off" with Dragoon's or other command shot?
[/quote]

Andy I am not sure where you get some of you calculations from.

How can a field gun hit on a 6+? I can only see the normal +1 to Activations, so 7+ at best. Not all officers will ever get the reroll option for Activations.

The 12" plus rule still applies to Field Guns, so until you get really close, the to hit is still 4+, do again only 4 or 5 hits. This can still be devastating to shot, with a loss of 2 or 3 figures, but should still keep them in the game.

Plus a field gun is 6 points out of your 24, so is hardly unbalancing.

Now when the enemy gets close you get one shot before you are overrun.

All this assumes the attacker is coming straight at your gun!

To be effective the field gun would need to target a single unit for most of the game, so choose the unit carefully.

Or am I missing something?

Plus seiges are meant to be hard and favour the defender, that is why the attackers dug in!
Games Played (Armies): WAB + WaC (IER Roman, Early Saxons and variants, Normans), WFB (Empire), 40K (Spacemarines), Uncharted Seas (Empire, Shroud Mages), WAB English Civil War (English!), Operation Squad (British) SAGA (Normans, Jomsvikings), Mordheim, Wings of War/Glory WWI, Dreadball, Chain of Command (British), Frostgrave, Sails of Glory and many others!!

Andy Mellor

It is possible for an officer to get the reroll as a start up ensign. On promotion he gains the master gunner trait? Giving 6+ and a reroll. Even a 7+ gives more shots than fails.
If you roll 12 dice on a 4+ that's 6 hits, and 3 dead musketeers with -3 morale, get hit again and your walking off the board?
All I'm saying is I don't think field guns need anymore help shooting through command shot, a 6pt veteran musket unit on first fire hits on 3+, 6pt field gun is definitely worth the points, were they that effective in the ECW?
In a siege game you expect the casualties and the scenario takes this into account (Graeme having all units on bases in the last campaign, cavalry dismounted as forlorn hope etc) in a meeting engagement/raid you don't normally meet the enemies entrenched field guns?

Carl Fisher

Not sure I see those traits,

Natural Leader gives reroll, but needs double six.

Musketry Master - give automatic Shoot activation, but requires 15 on 3D6

Commanding give another reroll option, but with a triple 6!

I can't find Master Gunner that improves shooting by +2.

But I do still agree field guns if deployed properly are worth the cost and having a skirmish screen is the only way to cut down the damage they can potentially do.

So I think we agree there is no need for any house rules!

And yes my casualty calculation was wrong!
Games Played (Armies): WAB + WaC (IER Roman, Early Saxons and variants, Normans), WFB (Empire), 40K (Spacemarines), Uncharted Seas (Empire, Shroud Mages), WAB English Civil War (English!), Operation Squad (British) SAGA (Normans, Jomsvikings), Mordheim, Wings of War/Glory WWI, Dreadball, Chain of Command (British), Frostgrave, Sails of Glory and many others!!

tony

just play as rules written , but the way im thinking is also cant target command and shot,but can the unit behind what they are supposedly shielding

Gary Martin

Quote from: Carl Fisher on May 05, 2019, 10:41:17 am
Quote from: Tom G on May 04, 2019, 02:01:03 pm
Request for house rule:

Could we please have house rule on commanded shot blocking line of sight for cannons.

Last campaign entire armies were moved up behind screens of commanded shot which cannot be targeted outside of 12".

This meant cannon was totally useless against an entire army moving up. If commanded shot are supposed to be difficult to target because they are few in number, make use of cover and duck and dive how are they blocking line of sight to a large body of men behind them?

Could we have a house ruling to make this more flavourful please?



Regimental guns would not waste shot while the Folorne Hope (skirmish screen) was out. Their limited fire power and range would be held back to support any defence when attack by pike blocks. So really it just adds extra punch to your muskets.

For field guns, with the extra range, these would be deployed to advantage on a high point behind the army, or in a defensive line and shoot over everyone's heads, including commanded shot.




I don't think you can take these things to literally. A skirmish line advancing towards a position will be popping off as soon as they can, not wait to a specific point. However there will be a point at which that fire will become effective (ish). The rules have identified this at 12". The notoriously inaccuracy of musketry means shooting at targets with formed masses over this range, against individuals (probably only visible with the odd flash of powder smoke, itself merging with other powder smoke) would again be ineffective. Although ineffective, those shots from the skirmish line will still be flying about, inevitably drawing the enemy focus, particularly gun crews, who will more often than not be the subject of those inaccurate efforts.
In any case the small scale nature of these skirmish events, would not see artillery deployed. Maybe just the siege scenario's.
Gary Martin
'I do not fear an army of lions led by sheep, I fear an army of sheep led by a lion'. Alexander the Great

Figures: 28mm Imperial Roman and Ancient Britons 700 figures ish, 28mm Napoleonic French, Brits, Portugese and Dutch-Belgian, several thousand based for General de Brigade but work for most rules, 28mm WW2 German, Russian, British and US about company of each with vehicles 1 to 1. Large army's of 15mm Napoleonic most nations based to Napoleons Battles but fairly flexible.

Gary Martin

Quote from: Carl Fisher on May 05, 2019, 10:07:47 am
Quote from: Gary Martin on May 04, 2019, 05:54:26 pm
Grahame
Quick question:

1644 isn't trotters as a tactic becoming old hat? Cromwell had trained his horse on more modern tactics, which I think was seeing greater use of similar tactics to the Royalists, with maybe a bit more discipline. Particularly across the Field Armies.


Not really, new developments in Parliamentary cavalry tactics really are not fully developed until 1645, with the advent of the New Model Army, and the removal of the old guard from command of the army by the Self Denying Ordinance.

Cromwell it is true was more aggressive in his tactics, but even at Marston Moor his cavalry it is the counter charge of the Royalists against his more controlled attack that gave him success against Byron.

However he was still the exception!

Having said all that, I do agree that Trotters poorly represent Parliamentary cavalry tactics after 1643. There is no evidence at all that the Caracole for example was ever used, in fact there is little evidence that they were even trained to use it.

Pistols and Carbines were still used to receive a charge, rather than counter charge however.

Perhaps remove Caracole from Trotters but improve attack to +4, would better reflect the majority situation in 1644.

By 1645 yes all cavalry would be some form of Gallopers, though only Royalists would be Aggressive.



I agree in the round, however I think this applies more to major engagements than the skirmish nature of the campaign. I believe (and ECW is far from an area of expertise for me) that cavalry skirmish's and minor engagements were a big aspect, with both sides winning their fare share. I found Parliamentary Cavalry to utterly ineffective to the point I hardly bothered using them, and the occasion I did (they were my reserve and I got lucky) they moved on and got trounced by a badly shot up Galloper unit. Just average die rolls.
Gary Martin
'I do not fear an army of lions led by sheep, I fear an army of sheep led by a lion'. Alexander the Great

Figures: 28mm Imperial Roman and Ancient Britons 700 figures ish, 28mm Napoleonic French, Brits, Portugese and Dutch-Belgian, several thousand based for General de Brigade but work for most rules, 28mm WW2 German, Russian, British and US about company of each with vehicles 1 to 1. Large army's of 15mm Napoleonic most nations based to Napoleons Battles but fairly flexible.

Andy Mellor

If a hero has to be attached to one unit, can you choose not to field the hero, only the unit?
I.e have a hero attached to forlorn hope for 7pts but only have 6 pts left to spend on my army selection so drop the hero for this battle? He must have been sent on a special mission.