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Author Topic: What A Tanker Campaign  (Read 1263 times)
Gary Martin
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« Reply #60 on: October 01, 2018, 10:01:46 am »

Apologies for late reply been on a course and got ill. Ok for tonight.

I have considered the above comments. In all respects I had already given them thought and tried to find reasonable solutions. I will lay out a few considerations put into the development;

I wanted to create a nationally representative feel so that players got a Soviet or German feel to their force rather than bland equal forces more like red v blue forces. Rob is right about the need to balance the game and clearly the first game on the face of it was uneven. Achieving balance, avoiding the totally the same force on both sides concept, is the difficult crux, especially when trying to have a national feel.

In reality at the plt level the soviets had limited training, little tactical nuance and communication capability. When attacking they were pointed in a direction, buttoned down and charged, firing on the move. Optics weren’t great, ammo was inconsistent, and steel of poor quality. And reliant on large numbers. Germans were the opposite.

Rule mechanisms are fairly blunt objects, particularly in a simple game like tanker. With such mechanics, numbers have a far greater impact than can be the case in reality. I wanted to avoid uncommanded extra tanks, and in hindsight wish I had kept 3 person German Plts and had 5 person soviet Plts. The points system in Tanker shows T34 and Pzr IV as equal (13 pts) and Stug IIIG at 15. Pzr IV has 1 extra strike die, but T34 can always move. So not outclassed but requiring the player to use its strength. The Stug does have key advantage, but does have a significant disadvantage (no turret). The practice game was even with the stugs having issues with targets remaining in arc and the Pzr IVs doing most damage, with the T34 giving as good as it got.
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Gary Martin
'I do not fear an army of lions led by sheep, I fear an army of sheep led by a lion'. Alexander the Great

Figures: 28mm Imperial Roman and Ancient Britons 700 figures ish, 28mm Napoleonic French, Brits, Portugese and Dutch-Belgian, several thousand based for General de Brigade but work for most rules, 28mm WW2 German, Russian, British and US about company of each with vehicles 1 to 1. Large army's of 15mm Napoleonic most nations based to Napoleons Battles but fairly flexible.
Gary Martin
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« Reply #61 on: October 01, 2018, 10:29:21 am »

The campaign rule for soviets to have to change a dice was to encourage soviet manoeuvre. The 1st scenario was Technically a defence (German) v attacker (Soviet). However both tables consisted of 3 objectives around the centre line of the table and soviets got to go first (even). Both sides had a lot of hits but caused negligible damage. Andy M got lucky with two dice throws with a 4 or 5 difference (On flank). Toms hit was also a flank hit at the end. In essence I don’t want to knee jerk on one game, but I do think a slight balance change is necessary.

Possible options:
* Germans don’t Button up (realistic), soviets always do (realistic) evens up the strike dice?
* Add extra uncommanded tank to each soviet Plt. Adds numbers, but will slow things and may over balance.
* Cancel the Soviet Campaign rule of changing die to a 1?
* Any of the changes outlined in my roundup of 1st scenario?

Feedback please and an indication of attendance tonight. Again sorry for short notice.
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Gary Martin
'I do not fear an army of lions led by sheep, I fear an army of sheep led by a lion'. Alexander the Great

Figures: 28mm Imperial Roman and Ancient Britons 700 figures ish, 28mm Napoleonic French, Brits, Portugese and Dutch-Belgian, several thousand based for General de Brigade but work for most rules, 28mm WW2 German, Russian, British and US about company of each with vehicles 1 to 1. Large army's of 15mm Napoleonic most nations based to Napoleons Battles but fairly flexible.
Godbold
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« Reply #62 on: October 01, 2018, 11:03:20 am »

Hello Gary, apologies as I am not able to make tonight.
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Chris Davies
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Are you sure that's wise, sir?


« Reply #63 on: October 01, 2018, 11:40:41 am »

Should be able to make it. I think the first option is good.
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The boy's toys: SAGA Anglo-Saxons; Operation Squad Russian Guards Rifle Squad 750 points;Russian Assault Squad 495 points; Bolt Action Soviets 1,000 points;Mordheim Goblin gang; Necromunda Bax's Stabbers; Uncharted Seas Shroud Mages; Dystopian Wars Russian starter fleet; Wings of Wibble; assorted plastic spacemen, Mahdists,French Foreign Legion, Colonial Egyptians and 6mm dwarfs.
Grahame
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« Reply #64 on: October 01, 2018, 12:22:42 pm »

I'll be there.
Grahame
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Andy Mellor
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« Reply #65 on: October 01, 2018, 01:36:58 pm »

Hi Gary
Apologies but can't make it again.
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Rob Farley
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In da beginning was da word and da word was WAAAGH


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« Reply #66 on: October 01, 2018, 01:44:28 pm »

I think I'm going to play Gaslands tonight instead.
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Current games (and armies) played: Gaslands, Direwolf Rampant, Frostgrave, Bolt Action & Operation Squad (Desert Rats, Communist Chinese, Russians, partisans, Americans, Finns, Italian Paras), In Her Majesty's Name, Judge Dredd Miniatures, Dreadball, Deadzone, Mobile Frame Zero, Uncharted Seas (Orcs), Necromunda (Pit Slaves, Escher), Wings of War (WWI and WWII), Mordheim, Alien vs Predator, Warpath

Current Projects: House Uller of Hellholt plus associated scenery, the Blaine Legion, Gaslands vehicles, WWII Danish
Daniel Phillips
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No Plan Survives Contact with One's Allies


« Reply #67 on: October 01, 2018, 02:58:16 pm »

Quote
* Germans don’t Button up (realistic), soviets always do (realistic) evens up the strike dice?
Not keen on this at all - less player choice and won't this really screw over soviets facing Stugs due to buttoned up facing low profile targets. Evening up the strike dice won't help if the soviets can't acquired a target in the first place.

Quote
* Add extra uncommanded tank to each soviet Plt. Adds numbers, but will slow things and may over balance.
This will slow the game down, might be better to have some better soviet tanks (T34/85?) than more soviet tanks?

Quote
* Cancel the Soviet Campaign rule of changing die to a 1?
I'd go with the fix of-
This rule only applies if the Russian tank is not engaged. Taking engaged to mean "has been shot at" or "has already acquired a target"
Or even "can acquired a target"?

I'll be there tonight.
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Warning: This post may contain sarcasm.
Current games & armies played- Gaslands: Idris. Full Thrust: NAC & NSL. Bolt Action: Late war German. Judge Dredd: Justice Dept & Renegade Robots. Kings of War: Dwarfs & Kingdoms of men. Mordheim: Skaven & Marianburg. Uncharted Seas: Iron Dwarfs. Necromunda: Orlock, Redemptionists & Van Saar. Direwolf Rampant : House Mallister.
Pippa Peile
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« Reply #68 on: October 01, 2018, 04:26:57 pm »

We will both be there. I think its early days still to make major changes. We have only played 1 game and it is a fairly new ruleset. The main thing i'd consider changing if others agreed is the speed at which a dead tank comes back. When you only have 1 tank its quite a high proportion of doing nothing if your tank dies and you get unlucky on your turn.
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Gary Martin
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« Reply #69 on: October 01, 2018, 04:53:36 pm »

30 Nov 43

Thrown back from Barzany 5th Guards Tank Corps has rallied behind the Mir Ridgeline, whilst the LAH has continued to push out its perimeter to allow its remaining sub units to deploy. Both sides have identified the Mir as the place to fix its frontline, whilst the seniors on both sides decide on future operational plans.

If the LAH can seize the ridge they can deploy their full might in preparation for a major counter attack and plush on Zhitomir. If the Soviets can prevent them and go firm it will cause the Germans to waist precious resources and allow the Stavka to consolidate and launch a major winter offensive.

2 Tables as before with a line of hills across the middle with 3 objectives per table. Both sides will deploy on their table edge.
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Gary Martin
'I do not fear an army of lions led by sheep, I fear an army of sheep led by a lion'. Alexander the Great

Figures: 28mm Imperial Roman and Ancient Britons 700 figures ish, 28mm Napoleonic French, Brits, Portugese and Dutch-Belgian, several thousand based for General de Brigade but work for most rules, 28mm WW2 German, Russian, British and US about company of each with vehicles 1 to 1. Large army's of 15mm Napoleonic most nations based to Napoleons Battles but fairly flexible.
Gary Martin
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« Reply #70 on: October 01, 2018, 04:55:11 pm »

Prior to the start we will have a quick discussion to identify any changes for the campaign.
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Gary Martin
'I do not fear an army of lions led by sheep, I fear an army of sheep led by a lion'. Alexander the Great

Figures: 28mm Imperial Roman and Ancient Britons 700 figures ish, 28mm Napoleonic French, Brits, Portugese and Dutch-Belgian, several thousand based for General de Brigade but work for most rules, 28mm WW2 German, Russian, British and US about company of each with vehicles 1 to 1. Large army's of 15mm Napoleonic most nations based to Napoleons Battles but fairly flexible.
Shawn Comer
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« Reply #71 on: October 01, 2018, 11:01:36 pm »

I think the adjustment we made tonight allowing the Soviets to immediately automatically come on the next turn was a good balancer. Our table was only won at the last moment due to a side shot kill that cleared an objective that was only taken by using a Hell Driving card. Otherwise it would have been a draw. So, I think that immediate return provides the Soviets the numbers they need.

The other big advantage I think is the German platoon leader's ability to issue orders to anyone while the Soviets have to be within 12". That makes a significant difference, at least when the Soviets are spread out. Perhaps instead of being forced to start in three separate parts of the board, all sides could be allowed to deploy however they see fit?
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Gary Martin
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« Reply #72 on: October 02, 2018, 10:09:07 am »

I think the adjustment we made tonight allowing the Soviets to immediately automatically come on the next turn was a good balancer. Our table was only won at the last moment due to a side shot kill that cleared an objective that was only taken by using a Hell Driving card. Otherwise it would have been a draw. So, I think that immediate return provides the Soviets the numbers they need.

The other big advantage I think is the German platoon leader's ability to issue orders to anyone while the Soviets have to be within 12". That makes a significant difference, at least when the Soviets are spread out. Perhaps instead of being forced to start in three separate parts of the board, all sides could be allowed to deploy however they see fit?
Thanks Shawn... Coming straight back for the Soviets did balance things a bit on our side and the soviets were winning going into the last turn. The right card order and a couple of flank shots at 2 objectives made the difference. Up to the penultimate turn the soviets had lost one tank (rear shot after a dynamic  move by Grahame, but only due to a great order dice and high move rolls by Andy. Otherwise Grahame was in for a choice of rear shots on two stugs).
Lots of shots with Soviets doing more as the lack of turret did make it difficult for stugs to keep acquired. The change for a 1 gave the soviets an early advantage and Dan survived several flank shots unbuttoned. Germans chose to remain unbuttoned throughout (realistic) making acquire easier. The soviets remained buttoned almost exclusively (realistic), reducing impact of hit, but made their acquire very difficult with stug low profile, so advantage and disadvantage across the board. That said it was another victory to Germans with a significant difference in kills. Most wargamers do tend to disolve into a slugfest in a firefight, which will never go well for soviets (realistic), however some rebalancing does appear necessary.
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Gary Martin
'I do not fear an army of lions led by sheep, I fear an army of sheep led by a lion'. Alexander the Great

Figures: 28mm Imperial Roman and Ancient Britons 700 figures ish, 28mm Napoleonic French, Brits, Portugese and Dutch-Belgian, several thousand based for General de Brigade but work for most rules, 28mm WW2 German, Russian, British and US about company of each with vehicles 1 to 1. Large army's of 15mm Napoleonic most nations based to Napoleons Battles but fairly flexible.
Daniel Phillips
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No Plan Survives Contact with One's Allies


« Reply #73 on: October 02, 2018, 11:00:11 am »

Quote
however some rebalancing does appear necessary.

I agree, although I'm not sure what the best solution is. For the first half of our game we were slightly behind on damage (I was down 3 dice and Ash was down 2) with the soviets holding 2 objectives. It was only in the last couple of turns where we pulled ahead.

I know the ratio was in the German's favor but how many kills were there on the other table?
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Warning: This post may contain sarcasm.
Current games & armies played- Gaslands: Idris. Full Thrust: NAC & NSL. Bolt Action: Late war German. Judge Dredd: Justice Dept & Renegade Robots. Kings of War: Dwarfs & Kingdoms of men. Mordheim: Skaven & Marianburg. Uncharted Seas: Iron Dwarfs. Necromunda: Orlock, Redemptionists & Van Saar. Direwolf Rampant : House Mallister.
Gary Martin
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« Reply #74 on: October 02, 2018, 12:33:57 pm »

Campaign Day 30/11/43

Both sides advanced up the slopes of the Mir Ridge and became engaged in a desperate battle to seize the critical heights. The courage of Soviet crews was again in evidence as they seized the objectives all be it at heavy loss. A desperate last ditch counter attack as dusk set in, cleared the heights and secured them for future German operations;

Outcome; German = 16 (2 wins, bonus for both, 8 Soviet tanks knocked out) Soviet = 1 (Pzr IV)

Campaign Standing;

German = 30
Soviet  = 1

Character Standing;

All players (except Andy Mellor, Rob, Carl and Kevin) have 30 Nov 43 recorded in Paybooks as a day in combat. All players who have played both scenarios are awarded the Bronze Days in Combat award and receive 1RP. All players also receive 1RP for their original promotion in first scenario.

Grahame is awarded Star of Lenin 2nd Class for heroically dashing across the table under heavy fire to seize a vital objective but was knocked out. Thought to have been killed Grahame struggled back to his lines to receive medical attention and survived. Received 2RP and a free draw of card at next scenario.
Martin also received the Star of Lenin 2nd Class for valour being knocked out twice, destroying a Pzr IV and raising morale. He receives 2 RP, 1 CP for Pzr IV, and although believed KIA, was blown from his turret and survived. He gets 2 free draws of the card next game.
Ash received the Star of Lenin 2nd Class for rushing across table to  seize a vital objective. 2RP and a free card.
Gary received the Iron Cross 2nd Class for rushing across the front to seize an objective at the last minute and destroy Ash. Receive further free card and 2RP
Shawn awarded the Iron Cross 2nd Class for destroying 2 tanks. Receives 2CP & 2RP and retain the 2 cards he drew. (Hell driving and Impressive Bush)
Tom, Dave, Dan, Gary each receive 1CP for destroying a Tank and retain the card they drew. Andy receives 2 CP for 2 tanks destroyed.

Promotions@2RP
Germans to Obersharfuhrer
Gary - kill and Days in Combat Award Retains Plt Comdr
Shawn - As Gary Retains Plt Comdr
Andy & Dave - 3 Kills
Tom, Dan - As per Gary

Soviets to Snr Sgt
Martin - Kill and Days in Combat award takes over as Plt Comdr

Tank Score Total
Andy Miller on 4
Dave on 3
Shawn & Tom on 2
Gary, Dan, Martin & Kevin on 1
Remainder on 0

To complex to work out all the character total RP. To work yours out mine is:
Tanks Knocked out = 1CP
Promotions = 3RP (Initial + to Oberscharfuhrer)
Days in Combat = 1RP (Bronze)
Bravery = 2RP (Iron Cross 2nd Class)
Total = 7
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 12:37:38 pm by Gary Martin » Logged

Gary Martin
'I do not fear an army of lions led by sheep, I fear an army of sheep led by a lion'. Alexander the Great

Figures: 28mm Imperial Roman and Ancient Britons 700 figures ish, 28mm Napoleonic French, Brits, Portugese and Dutch-Belgian, several thousand based for General de Brigade but work for most rules, 28mm WW2 German, Russian, British and US about company of each with vehicles 1 to 1. Large army's of 15mm Napoleonic most nations based to Napoleons Battles but fairly flexible.
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