Peterborough Wargames Club

Games => Campaigns => Topic started by: Gary Martin on June 03, 2018, 11:17:40 am

Title: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Gary Martin on June 03, 2018, 11:17:40 am
At the AGM I undertook to run a WW2 campaign this year. Given the interest that the new Lardies 'What a Tanker', rules appear to have generated at the club, I propose to run a simple campaign, pretty much inline with the rules.

It wont be necessary for every player to play every game. The more often you play the more chance to progress, but also more opportunity to be knocked out and your crew killed. Probably start with Panzer IV and T34/76, with the possibility to upgrade to Tiger I and T34/85.

If members can indicate if they are interested I will liaise with the committee to identify an appropriate timetable. Gary
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Chris Davies on June 03, 2018, 12:39:59 pm
Tanked up and ready to roll!
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Andy Miller on June 04, 2018, 03:24:01 pm
Me too, preferably in a panzer.
Andy
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Rob Farley on June 05, 2018, 12:28:55 am
As I said tonight, I'm potentially interested but I'd like to try the game out first before committing.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Mike Whitaker on June 05, 2018, 08:31:05 am
Moi.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Grahame on June 05, 2018, 01:48:45 pm
Count me in - I'll be British or a Yank with a tank or Canadian or Free French - something Allied.
Grahame
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Mike Whitaker on June 05, 2018, 06:19:05 pm
Quote from: Grahame on June 05, 2018, 01:48:45 pm
Count me in - I'll be British or a Yank with a tank or Canadian or Free French - something Allied.
Grahame


I think you're going to be Russian, then :D
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Andy Mellor on June 06, 2018, 02:09:57 pm
German please?
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Shawn Comer on June 06, 2018, 05:51:35 pm
I would be interested.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Gary Martin on June 06, 2018, 06:49:05 pm
So the plan will be to run a What a Tanker campaign set in March 1943 at the 3rd Battle of Kharkov. Mainly this is because I'm all keen on winter at the moment and this is a winter campaign. Players interested so far. Further places available as people wont be expected to fight every battle. Campaign start 1st August.

Soviet Guards Tank Platoon.  (T34/76)
Plt Comdr - Grahame
2 I/C - Mike
Tank Comdr - Chris
Tank Comdr - Rob

2nd Panzer Kompanie LAH. (Pzr IV H)
231 - Gary
232 - Andy Miller
233 - Shawn
234 - Andy Mellor

I will post some campaign suggestions to add flavour shortly.

Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Chris Davies on June 07, 2018, 09:33:17 am
Ourrah!
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Dave Brown on June 07, 2018, 07:28:32 pm
Brrrrrrrm!!!!! BOOOM!!! BRRRRRM!!!! BOOM BOOM!
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Mike Whitaker on June 08, 2018, 10:57:02 am
Quote from: Dave Brown on June 07, 2018, 07:28:32 pm
Brrrrrrrm!!!!! BOOOM!!! BRRRRRM!!!! BOOM BOOM!


Watch him, he's dangerous.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Gary Martin on June 10, 2018, 08:45:05 pm
Still room for a few more.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Pippa Peile on June 11, 2018, 01:48:50 pm
Ash and I are interested but we would probably need to borrow models. Do you have any spares?
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Daniel Phillips on June 11, 2018, 02:19:32 pm
I might be interested, I'd like to try it out first though.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Gary Martin on June 11, 2018, 06:04:09 pm
I will try and get a game run, particularly those who haven't played the rules. I can supply all the models, which will be identifiable to each player. Ideally 12 players will be ideal allowing for 2 x 3 vehicle platoons per side. As its likely that some players will not be available Plts would run under strength. I am writing a few campaign specific rules to provide some period flavour. The tank commanders can obtain promotion within the platoon and the plt commander will have some added capability. If the plt commander is killed then that player takes a new crew and starts as No3 in the plt with the No2 becoming the comdr etc.
If your tank is destroyed there will be a chance some members of the crew may survive.
Certain National specific rules will apply ie. until they come under fire the Russian tanks must change a die to move and advance toward the enemy. However the Russians will never start a game out numbered and if they have less players on a given day, they will have extra tanks. If the Germans are out numbered... such is life.
Any suggestions are welcome and I will post a draft campaign note shortly...
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Carl Fisher on July 03, 2018, 12:45:52 pm
Following the fun game last night - can you add me to the list?

Prefer to be Russians - can you provide tanks, as last night?

Thanks
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Gary Martin on July 26, 2018, 11:59:25 am
Mike

Which week in August is set for the What a Tanker Campaign to start?

Am just finalising the Campaign specific rules. I can supply all tanks however if you have  your own that's fine. It is a winter campaign with Soviets using T34/76 and can upgrade to T34/85, and the German Pzr IVH, Stug IIIG, upgrading to Tiger I.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Mike Whitaker on July 26, 2018, 12:28:47 pm
Quote from: Gary Martin on July 26, 2018, 11:59:25 am

Which week in August is set for the What a Tanker Campaign to start?



Last, IIRC
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Gary Martin on August 02, 2018, 10:16:03 am
Dear all
Please see attached for 'What a Tanker' campaign. This is a draft so (polite :)) comment and suggestion welcomed. Any inconsistencies or direct conflict to the rules need to be identified. First game is the 4th Monday of August.

I have tried to give some substance to each character with a national flavour. Where I have given a national twist (soviet must advance etc) I have given a balancing factor (Soviets only need 4 kills to upgrade). Players can print off there Character sheets, with a spare or to. I will also have a few spares.

Each table will be given a results sheet to hand in at the conclusion of the game. Each Plt Comdr will also be handed a scenario sheet with objectives. Each side will determine which Plt fights on which table and revealed to the opponent at the beginning. I will provide a campaign map as each scenario result will play to the next.
Gary
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Carl Fisher on August 02, 2018, 11:49:04 am
Just a quick note - the 4th Monday in August is a Bank Holiday.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Daniel Phillips on August 02, 2018, 12:08:51 pm
Looks good. I'd like to join in on the German side, preferably with a Stug III.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Grahame on August 02, 2018, 04:12:20 pm
Unfortunately I will be in Sunderland reenacting the civil war on the bank holiday.
Grahame
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Rob Farley on August 03, 2018, 10:41:57 am
The last Monday of the month is already the X-Wing campaign.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Carl Fisher on August 03, 2018, 10:58:09 am
Quote from: Rob Farley on August 03, 2018, 10:41:57 am
The last Monday of the month is already the X-Wing campaign.


Looks like first Monday of month is free.

2nd Monday - Gaslands
3rd Monday - ECW
4th Monday - X-wing

Is that correct?
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Rob Farley on August 03, 2018, 07:48:07 pm
Quote from: Carl Fisher on August 03, 2018, 10:58:09 am
Quote from: Rob Farley on August 03, 2018, 10:41:57 am
The last Monday of the month is already the X-Wing campaign.


Looks like first Monday of month is free.

2nd Monday - Gaslands
3rd Monday - ECW
4th Monday - X-wing

Is that correct?

Yep.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Gary Martin on August 05, 2018, 08:04:46 pm
Quote from: Rob Farley on August 03, 2018, 07:48:07 pm
Quote from: Carl Fisher on August 03, 2018, 10:58:09 am
Quote from: Rob Farley on August 03, 2018, 10:41:57 am
The last Monday of the month is already the X-Wing campaign.


Looks like first Monday of month is free.

2nd Monday - Gaslands
3rd Monday - ECW
4th Monday - X-wing

Is that correct?

Yep.

Guess that would make it first Monday in Sept.

However if there is a feeling that this is too many campaigns at the same time I can always delay?
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Daniel Phillips on August 05, 2018, 08:13:33 pm
It's fine, we've had 4 campaigns on at the same time loads of times.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Pippa Peile on August 10, 2018, 03:41:04 pm
Campaign rules look good. Neither Ash nor me mind which side we play on so stick us in wherever you need us to make up numbers.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Andy Miller on August 11, 2018, 10:29:09 am
I'd be up for piloting a StuG  ;D
Andy
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Rob Farley on August 21, 2018, 01:38:27 am
In the interests of clarity, I'm still interested in taking part. Russians for preference.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Godbold on August 21, 2018, 08:00:54 am
Hello Gary,Germans please.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Chris Davies on August 21, 2018, 08:48:42 am
As before, Russian, and I have tanks!
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Grahame on August 21, 2018, 01:54:47 pm
Confirm prepared to pay down my life for mother Russia.
Grahame
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Mike Whitaker on August 21, 2018, 03:00:12 pm
Russia, not available on 3/8/18.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Dave Brown on August 21, 2018, 05:34:31 pm
I'm in.

I'd like to play German please!
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Gary Martin on August 27, 2018, 11:34:51 am
So next week the campaign begins:

Those German among you, after the efforts at Kursk, have just completed several months of training back in the fatherland and are newly qualified Panzer commanders. Your parent Division the famed LAH is entraining in Italy to be rushed once more to the Eastern Front to yet again save the day. In your brand new Panzer IV H and Stug III G you are beginning your journey, with newbie crews at the railhead in Germany, sent to meet your colleagues of the 2nd SS Panzer Kompanie, or 2nd SS Stug Bty, and resist the Soviet horde.

Those Russian among you are some of the few survivors of the 5th Guards Tank Army, pulverised at Kursk. You have been promoted and spent a few weeks training as a tank commander with new crews and brand new T34/76. The 5th Guards have been reformed and are about to be flung into the breach to finally break the hated German line and push on to Berlin.

This is my list of commanders as it stands. If I have missed anyone or their are late entries let me know. I have updated the campaign rules as attached, mainly to outline the activation process. Just to reiterate there is no need to play every game and no catchups are required. The more games you play the more rewards you can obtain. On the downside more chance to get your character killed. I have tried to meet everyones request for side and tank. Again if anyones has concerns let me know.

Soviet Guards Tank Platoon 1.  (T34/76)
Acting Plt Comdr - Grahame
Tank Comdr - Mike
Tank Comdr - Chris
Tank Comdr - Ash

Soviet Guards Tank Platoon 2
Acting Plt Comdr - Rob
Tank Comdr - Pippa
Tank Comdr - Carl
Tank Comdr - Martin

2nd Stug Battery LAH. (Stug IIIG)
231 - Gary
232 - Andy Miller
233 - Dan
234 - Tom

2nd Panzer Kompanie LAH (Pzr IVH)
231 - Shawn
232 - Dave
233 - Andy Mellor
234 - Kevin
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Gary Martin on August 29, 2018, 04:31:37 pm
Can I get confirmation on who is coming on Monday.

Due to numbers Plts are now 4 Tanks. I'm short a winter Stug (Have some non winter) but have just about finished the 4th Pzr IV. However anyone with there own tank is welcome as well as any spares of the same type to use as knocked out.

Please bring a couple of character printout sheets for the relevant side each. I have a number of dashboards and counters/cards, however if others do also that would be helpful. It would be useful if the soviet players can nominate one of their own to discuss any issues off line that may crop up. Eg if things seem a bit one sided and may need a balancing. I do have a few ideas to introduce if things don't appear even.

I have been keen to encourage a national feel to each side rather than have two equal. Where there is a negative (the soviet need to advance Stah Stah Stah, I have balanced with soviets upgrading early to T34/85. However as the campaign progresses inconsistencies may arise which may need adjustment.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Daniel Phillips on August 29, 2018, 05:12:58 pm
I'll be there.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Grahame on August 29, 2018, 05:53:40 pm
I will be there
Grahame
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Andy Miller on August 29, 2018, 08:46:15 pm
I'll be there with my own winterised StuG
Andy
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Carl Fisher on August 30, 2018, 07:40:55 am
Quote from: Gary Martin on August 29, 2018, 04:31:37 pm
Can I get confirmation on who is coming on Monday.


I confirm. I will be there.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Andy Mellor on August 30, 2018, 09:04:24 am
I'll be there
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Mike Whitaker on August 30, 2018, 01:22:52 pm
I'll be in Lerwick :D
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Andy Miller on August 30, 2018, 02:56:40 pm
 Covered in butter, or was that Lurpak?
That mental picture can never be unseen!
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Pippa Peile on August 30, 2018, 04:50:49 pm
We will both be there Monday.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Rob Farley on September 01, 2018, 10:09:12 pm
I'll be there on Monday.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Andy Mellor on September 03, 2018, 08:22:11 am
My apologies Gary, but I can't make it tonight.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Shawn Comer on September 03, 2018, 04:29:33 pm
I will be there tonight.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Godbold on September 03, 2018, 05:35:44 pm
I will be there
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Gary Martin on September 03, 2018, 05:43:57 pm
Slightly delayed in London should get to club by 7.30. We need two 6 x 4 tables side by side with winter cloths, a few feet apart.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Pippa Peile on September 03, 2018, 10:17:11 pm
What a tanker quick reference sheet
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Gary Martin on September 04, 2018, 12:02:29 pm
Campaign day - 28 Nov 43

With German defences crumbling around the strategically important Barzany Railhead, 5th Guards Tank Army threw in its newly arrived makeshift platoons to achieve a final breakthrough. HQ II SS Panzer Korps knowing that the loss of this important reinforcement hub would throw the line back 20km, and make deploying the arriving LAH impossible, launched plts of Stug and Pzr IVH straight from the rail flatbeds. After a sharp engagement Soviet forces were forced to withdraw with heavy losses, enabling LAH elements to deploy forward and secure the railhead for future operations.

Campaign Standing;

German = 14 (2 x wins, Bonus for both wins, 6 Soviet Tanks Knocked out)
Soviet  = 0

Character Standing;

All players (except Andy Mellor and Mike) have 28 Nov 43 recorded in Paybooks as a day in combat.
Chris is awarded Star of Lenin 2nd Class for heroically dashing across the table under heavy fire to seize a vital objective. Received 2RP and a free draw of card at next scenario.
Dave and Andy Miller are both awarded the Iron Cross 2nd Class for each destroying 2 tanks. Both receive 2CP & 2RP and retain the 2 cards they drew. (Dave Sandbags & Hell driving, Andy Quick Snifter and Cool Hand)
Kevin and Tom each receive 1CP for destroying a Tank and retain the card they drew. Hot Tracer and Hell Driving respectfully.

German
Dave & Andy Miller on 4
Tom & Kevin on 1
Remainder on 0

Soviet
Chris on 2
Remainder on 0



Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Gary Martin on September 04, 2018, 12:15:48 pm
Thanks for everyones efforts last night and playing the game in the spirit it was intended.

A couple of things to change for next time.

* Russian Player will always be on +1 when rolling to come back. The roll takes place in the turn after being knocked out.
* Russian Player will upgrade after 3 Kills and not 4. After 6 Kills they can upgrade to an SU 100 (haven't got any so will need to source some)
* Russian Player only required to change a die to a 1, when they are the attacker. At the turn after they are fired at for the first time this requirement ceases, as they are then considered engaged.
* Objectives are taken when a player comes within 4" of it uncontested. It is then retained until an opponent gets within 4" of it uncontested.

Feedback on campaign and ideas are welcome to tweak for next time.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Mike Whitaker on September 04, 2018, 02:31:31 pm
I see Dave's at it again....
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Rob Farley on September 20, 2018, 10:59:00 pm
I've been thinking about this a lot and I think something major needs to be done to balance the Russian and German forces on the tabletop. The T-34s are outclassed against the Panzers, and hopelessly outclassed against the Stugs. Any battle where the forces are numerically equal is always going to be completely one-sided unless the scenario is specifically written to favour the Russians, unlike game 1 where the scenario heavily favoured the Germans. Plus the campaign special rule that messes up the Russians even more, especially since we proved in game 1 that it doesn't work (either tactically or thematically).

I've seen all the stuff you've already mentioned Gary, and none of that will fix the problem. All it will do is provide more T-34s for the Stugs to kill. It won't actually do anything to give the Russians a fighting chance.

Given the vehicles involved, the Russians need a clear numerical advantage over the Germans for it to be close to fair. I'd say one extra tank against the Panzers and two against the Stugs. Minimum.

As it stands, I found myself enjoying game 1 in spite of the game itself instead of because of it. Which is not a good sign.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Andy Miller on September 22, 2018, 02:48:47 pm
I've also have had a think!
I do agree with the majority with what Rob has said and we had spoken about it a week ago as players having view points from either side.
So here goes, just thoughts and ideas:-
The PzIV and certainly StuGs do out class the T34. In reality the Germans usually outgunned the Russians, however the Russians relied often on numbers. I think Rob's idea is sound to have more Russians. My suggestion would be 50% more (rounding down against PzIVs and up against StuGs.
2 German = 3 Russian
3 German = 4 Russian (vs PzIV) or 5 Russian (vs StuG)
4 Geman = 6 Russian
5 German = 7 or 8 Russian (respectively)
etc
Equally happy to go with Rob's +1 vs PzIV , +2 vs StuG idea
All players still maintain there character tank. Any extra tank(s) are taken in turns to control. Anyone off table for that turn has priority, but all players then roll off for control, so it may make some inconsistent turns as different players take control of this expendable tank, "Crazy Ivan" or possibly "Bonkers Boris".
These tanks also roll to come back on.
This should negate the Russian bonus of getting back on table more easily.

The "advancing Russian" national characteristic is not working as intended in some situations. Possible fix - It should read that a Russian player should have to change any one of their dice to a "1" only if they do not already have a "1" in there command dice initial roll. This rule only applies if the Russian tank is not engaged. Taking engaged to mean "has been shot at" or "has already acquired a target"

Just some thoughts for discussion.
Andy
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Rob Farley on September 22, 2018, 05:30:05 pm
Quote from: Andy Miller on September 22, 2018, 02:48:47 pm
The "advancing Russian" national characteristic is not working as intended in some situations. Possible fix - It should read that a Russian player should have to change any one of their dice to a "1" only if they do not already have a "1" in there command dice initial roll. This rule only applies if the Russian tank is not engaged. Taking engaged to mean "has been shot at" or "has already acquired a target"

That would certainly work better.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Tom G on September 26, 2018, 11:48:25 pm
Quote from: Rob Farley on September 22, 2018, 05:30:05 pm
Quote from: Andy Miller on September 22, 2018, 02:48:47 pm
The "advancing Russian" national characteristic is not working as intended in some situations. Possible fix - It should read that a Russian player should have to change any one of their dice to a "1" only if they do not already have a "1" in there command dice initial roll. This rule only applies if the Russian tank is not engaged. Taking engaged to mean "has been shot at" or "has already acquired a target"

That would certainly work better.


That is what I thought the rule was initially just from a common sense point of view. Then I found out the rule as written and thought it seemed a bit too restrictive.


I like the idea of being far more outnumbered by the Russians. More tanks for my Stug to destroy.  :P

*edit - grammar
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Gary Martin on October 01, 2018, 11:01:46 am
Apologies for late reply been on a course and got ill. Ok for tonight.

I have considered the above comments. In all respects I had already given them thought and tried to find reasonable solutions. I will lay out a few considerations put into the development;

I wanted to create a nationally representative feel so that players got a Soviet or German feel to their force rather than bland equal forces more like red v blue forces. Rob is right about the need to balance the game and clearly the first game on the face of it was uneven. Achieving balance, avoiding the totally the same force on both sides concept, is the difficult crux, especially when trying to have a national feel.

In reality at the plt level the soviets had limited training, little tactical nuance and communication capability. When attacking they were pointed in a direction, buttoned down and charged, firing on the move. Optics weren't great, ammo was inconsistent, and steel of poor quality. And reliant on large numbers. Germans were the opposite.

Rule mechanisms are fairly blunt objects, particularly in a simple game like tanker. With such mechanics, numbers have a far greater impact than can be the case in reality. I wanted to avoid uncommanded extra tanks, and in hindsight wish I had kept 3 person German Plts and had 5 person soviet Plts. The points system in Tanker shows T34 and Pzr IV as equal (13 pts) and Stug IIIG at 15. Pzr IV has 1 extra strike die, but T34 can always move. So not outclassed but requiring the player to use its strength. The Stug does have key advantage, but does have a significant disadvantage (no turret). The practice game was even with the stugs having issues with targets remaining in arc and the Pzr IVs doing most damage, with the T34 giving as good as it got.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Gary Martin on October 01, 2018, 11:29:21 am
The campaign rule for soviets to have to change a dice was to encourage soviet manoeuvre. The 1st scenario was Technically a defence (German) v attacker (Soviet). However both tables consisted of 3 objectives around the centre line of the table and soviets got to go first (even). Both sides had a lot of hits but caused negligible damage. Andy M got lucky with two dice throws with a 4 or 5 difference (On flank). Toms hit was also a flank hit at the end. In essence I don't want to knee jerk on one game, but I do think a slight balance change is necessary.

Possible options:
* Germans don't Button up (realistic), soviets always do (realistic) evens up the strike dice?
* Add extra uncommanded tank to each soviet Plt. Adds numbers, but will slow things and may over balance.
* Cancel the Soviet Campaign rule of changing die to a 1?
* Any of the changes outlined in my roundup of 1st scenario?

Feedback please and an indication of attendance tonight. Again sorry for short notice.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Godbold on October 01, 2018, 12:03:20 pm
Hello Gary, apologies as I am not able to make tonight.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Chris Davies on October 01, 2018, 12:40:41 pm
Should be able to make it. I think the first option is good.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Grahame on October 01, 2018, 01:22:42 pm
I'll be there.
Grahame
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Andy Mellor on October 01, 2018, 02:36:58 pm
Hi Gary
Apologies but can't make it again.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Rob Farley on October 01, 2018, 02:44:28 pm
I think I'm going to play Gaslands tonight instead.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Daniel Phillips on October 01, 2018, 03:58:16 pm
Quote* Germans don't Button up (realistic), soviets always do (realistic) evens up the strike dice?

Not keen on this at all - less player choice and won't this really screw over soviets facing Stugs due to buttoned up facing low profile targets. Evening up the strike dice won't help if the soviets can't acquired a target in the first place.

Quote* Add extra uncommanded tank to each soviet Plt. Adds numbers, but will slow things and may over balance.

This will slow the game down, might be better to have some better soviet tanks (T34/85?) than more soviet tanks?

Quote* Cancel the Soviet Campaign rule of changing die to a 1?

I'd go with the fix of-
This rule only applies if the Russian tank is not engaged. Taking engaged to mean "has been shot at" or "has already acquired a target"
Or even "can acquired a target"?

I'll be there tonight.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Pippa Peile on October 01, 2018, 05:26:57 pm
We will both be there. I think its early days still to make major changes. We have only played 1 game and it is a fairly new ruleset. The main thing i'd consider changing if others agreed is the speed at which a dead tank comes back. When you only have 1 tank its quite a high proportion of doing nothing if your tank dies and you get unlucky on your turn.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Gary Martin on October 01, 2018, 05:53:36 pm
30 Nov 43

Thrown back from Barzany 5th Guards Tank Corps has rallied behind the Mir Ridgeline, whilst the LAH has continued to push out its perimeter to allow its remaining sub units to deploy. Both sides have identified the Mir as the place to fix its frontline, whilst the seniors on both sides decide on future operational plans.

If the LAH can seize the ridge they can deploy their full might in preparation for a major counter attack and plush on Zhitomir. If the Soviets can prevent them and go firm it will cause the Germans to waist precious resources and allow the Stavka to consolidate and launch a major winter offensive.

2 Tables as before with a line of hills across the middle with 3 objectives per table. Both sides will deploy on their table edge.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Gary Martin on October 01, 2018, 05:55:11 pm
Prior to the start we will have a quick discussion to identify any changes for the campaign.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Shawn Comer on October 02, 2018, 12:01:36 am
I think the adjustment we made tonight allowing the Soviets to immediately automatically come on the next turn was a good balancer. Our table was only won at the last moment due to a side shot kill that cleared an objective that was only taken by using a Hell Driving card. Otherwise it would have been a draw. So, I think that immediate return provides the Soviets the numbers they need.

The other big advantage I think is the German platoon leader's ability to issue orders to anyone while the Soviets have to be within 12". That makes a significant difference, at least when the Soviets are spread out. Perhaps instead of being forced to start in three separate parts of the board, all sides could be allowed to deploy however they see fit?
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Gary Martin on October 02, 2018, 11:09:07 am
Quote from: Shawn Comer on October 02, 2018, 12:01:36 am
I think the adjustment we made tonight allowing the Soviets to immediately automatically come on the next turn was a good balancer. Our table was only won at the last moment due to a side shot kill that cleared an objective that was only taken by using a Hell Driving card. Otherwise it would have been a draw. So, I think that immediate return provides the Soviets the numbers they need.

The other big advantage I think is the German platoon leader's ability to issue orders to anyone while the Soviets have to be within 12". That makes a significant difference, at least when the Soviets are spread out. Perhaps instead of being forced to start in three separate parts of the board, all sides could be allowed to deploy however they see fit?

Thanks Shawn... Coming straight back for the Soviets did balance things a bit on our side and the soviets were winning going into the last turn. The right card order and a couple of flank shots at 2 objectives made the difference. Up to the penultimate turn the soviets had lost one tank (rear shot after a dynamic  move by Grahame, but only due to a great order dice and high move rolls by Andy. Otherwise Grahame was in for a choice of rear shots on two stugs).
Lots of shots with Soviets doing more as the lack of turret did make it difficult for stugs to keep acquired. The change for a 1 gave the soviets an early advantage and Dan survived several flank shots unbuttoned. Germans chose to remain unbuttoned throughout (realistic) making acquire easier. The soviets remained buttoned almost exclusively (realistic), reducing impact of hit, but made their acquire very difficult with stug low profile, so advantage and disadvantage across the board. That said it was another victory to Germans with a significant difference in kills. Most wargamers do tend to disolve into a slugfest in a firefight, which will never go well for soviets (realistic), however some rebalancing does appear necessary.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Daniel Phillips on October 02, 2018, 12:00:11 pm
Quotehowever some rebalancing does appear necessary.


I agree, although I'm not sure what the best solution is. For the first half of our game we were slightly behind on damage (I was down 3 dice and Ash was down 2) with the soviets holding 2 objectives. It was only in the last couple of turns where we pulled ahead.

I know the ratio was in the German's favor but how many kills were there on the other table?
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Gary Martin on October 02, 2018, 01:33:57 pm
Campaign Day 30/11/43

Both sides advanced up the slopes of the Mir Ridge and became engaged in a desperate battle to seize the critical heights. The courage of Soviet crews was again in evidence as they seized the objectives all be it at heavy loss. A desperate last ditch counter attack as dusk set in, cleared the heights and secured them for future German operations;

Outcome; German = 16 (2 wins, bonus for both, 8 Soviet tanks knocked out) Soviet = 1 (Pzr IV)

Campaign Standing;

German = 30
Soviet  = 1

Character Standing;

All players (except Andy Mellor, Rob, Carl and Kevin) have 30 Nov 43 recorded in Paybooks as a day in combat. All players who have played both scenarios are awarded the Bronze Days in Combat award and receive 1RP. All players also receive 1RP for their original promotion in first scenario.

Grahame is awarded Star of Lenin 2nd Class for heroically dashing across the table under heavy fire to seize a vital objective but was knocked out. Thought to have been killed Grahame struggled back to his lines to receive medical attention and survived. Received 2RP and a free draw of card at next scenario.
Martin also received the Star of Lenin 2nd Class for valour being knocked out twice, destroying a Pzr IV and raising morale. He receives 2 RP, 1 CP for Pzr IV, and although believed KIA, was blown from his turret and survived. He gets 2 free draws of the card next game.
Ash received the Star of Lenin 2nd Class for rushing across table to  seize a vital objective. 2RP and a free card.
Gary received the Iron Cross 2nd Class for rushing across the front to seize an objective at the last minute and destroy Ash. Receive further free card and 2RP
Shawn awarded the Iron Cross 2nd Class for destroying 2 tanks. Receives 2CP & 2RP and retain the 2 cards he drew. (Hell driving and Impressive Bush)
Tom, Dave, Dan, Gary each receive 1CP for destroying a Tank and retain the card they drew. Andy receives 2 CP for 2 tanks destroyed.

Promotions@2RP
Germans to Obersharfuhrer
Gary - kill and Days in Combat Award Retains Plt Comdr
Shawn - As Gary Retains Plt Comdr
Andy & Dave - 3 Kills
Tom, Dan - As per Gary

Soviets to Snr Sgt
Martin - Kill and Days in Combat award takes over as Plt Comdr

Tank Score Total
Andy Miller on 4
Dave on 3
Shawn & Tom on 2
Gary, Dan, Martin & Kevin on 1
Remainder on 0

To complex to work out all the character total RP. To work yours out mine is:
Tanks Knocked out = 1CP
Promotions = 3RP (Initial + to Oberscharfuhrer)
Days in Combat = 1RP (Bronze)
Bravery = 2RP (Iron Cross 2nd Class)
Total = 7
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: martink0646 on October 02, 2018, 07:13:11 pm
Hi Gary,

Really enjoyed it, thanks.  Looking at how our game panned out it played relatively historically. Gung-ho Russians advancing on the objectives with slightly more cautious Germans waiting & pushing onto the objectives on the final turn.

The bit that didn't quite fit for me was that the Germans historically used ambush tactics so as a thought, all German tanks must start in cover (hard?) & have restricted movement/no movement in the first two turns?

In hindsight, we (the Russians) could have sat back & waited & then rushed the objectives at the end but that would seem to be against the 'spirit' of the game?

Just a thought...I really enjoyed it as it was & winning or losing in a group like this hardly seems relevant to me as long as I have had fun interacting with my team mates, so I would be more than happy to continue as it is.  That might be heresy but I honestly don't care as long as I've thrown dice.

MartinK
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Andy Miller on October 03, 2018, 05:05:21 pm
Want to run my RP past you to see if I've got it -
Tanks knocked out (4) = 4CP

Promotions = 3RP (initial, +1 for 1st three kills, +1 for kill and combat days)  Hauptscharfuhrer
Days in combat = 1RP (Bronze)
Bravery = 4RP (Iron cross 2nd class[with oak leaves], 2 lots of 2kills per game)
Total = 8RP

Is this about right?
or is it Promotions = 6RP (initial {1}, +2 for first three kills, +3 for kill and combat day bronze) ???
Andy
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Carl Fisher on October 03, 2018, 05:28:23 pm
Looking at the results so far, and how the first game played, the fact that Russians tanks respawn easily, just improves the game for the Germans. Just becomes a turkey shoot.

Given that the T34s appear to be easier to kill, and given objectives and special rules that discourage the Russians from hanging back, it all looks to be a bit one sided.

Given the results of game two seems to still favour the Germans.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Daniel Phillips on October 03, 2018, 06:03:40 pm
Across the 2 games the kill ratio is 14 to 1. Based on this I'd suggest changing the rules on when the Soviet players get vehicle upgrades from "The Soviets can upgrade at four kills to T34/85" to something based on taking objectives, surviving, gaining medals etc. Mixing in some T34/85s should even things up nicely (they are a lot better than T34s).
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Rob Farley on October 03, 2018, 10:18:05 pm
Quote from: Carl Fisher on October 03, 2018, 05:28:23 pm
Looking at the results so far, and how the first game played, the fact that Russians tanks respawn easily, just improves the game for the Germans. Just becomes a turkey shoot.

Given that the T34s appear to be easier to kill, and given objectives and special rules that discourage the Russians from hanging back, it all looks to be a bit one sided.

Given the results of game two seems to still favour the Germans.

All I can say is
Quote from: Rob Farley on September 20, 2018, 10:59:00 pm
All it will do is provide more T-34s for the Stugs to kill. It won't actually do anything to give the Russians a fighting chance.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Andy Miller on October 04, 2018, 10:32:27 am
One question and one observation.
Q - "Contested objectives", is it still contested if one side has two tanks on the objective vs one from the opposition?
Observation - Agree with points made so far. Yes it is fun (but I've got a StuG). Prefer it not to be "same" sides, but still "fair". We could all downgrade to StuG F8's but that would have two more evenly matched sides. I think I'm trying to say I like the mismatch, but it should be fair to the Russians with some historically based fix. How did the Russian's win tank battles? Weight of numbers and drawing the German's into prepared defensive positions to name just two.
This does come back to the Russian's having extra tanks. I know Gary was trying to avoid this, but it might be worth trying as a fix, at least on one occasion/table? Expendable "Crazy Ivan" is in the spirit of things and as Grahame showed, although he was unlucky, did put the "cat among the pigeons".
As an alternate idea, random reinforcements come through with T34/85s. Either odd tanks here and there or one platoon (roll of a dice) gets the new ones?
As far as kills go, I can only speak for the ones on our table, mine have all been due to the advantage of flank shots (4+s hitting). One other player's kill due to wearing a T34 down to zero dice, fair enough!
Love the game and appreciate Martin's view on it, but I don't want to see the Russian's going AWOL and having issues with their commissar.
Andy
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Gary Martin on October 05, 2018, 02:17:31 pm
Quote from: Andy Miller on October 03, 2018, 05:05:21 pm
Want to run my RP past you to see if I've got it -
Tanks knocked out (4) = 4CP

Promotions = 3RP (initial, +1 for 1st three kills, +1 for kill and combat days)  Hauptscharfuhrer
Days in combat = 1RP (Bronze)
Bravery = 4RP (Iron cross 2nd class[with oak leaves], 2 lots of 2kills per game)
Total = 8RP

Is this about right?
or is it Promotions = 6RP (initial {1}, +2 for first three kills, +3 for kill and combat day bronze) ???
Andy

Afraid not you are on 10 total . I think your the same as me but with 3 extra kills. You can only win the iron Cross 2nd class once, and be promoted to Obersharfuhrer once, all be it you did qualify for both twice. You would have won the IC 2nd class for your drive back to knockout Grahame, but you'd already qualified in kills, and not enough for a 1st class. Throat tin still away off
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Gary Martin on October 28, 2018, 10:04:01 am
Warning Order:

Next Campaign day approaches. After the losses incurred by the 5th Guards, the Stavka has sent the latest available AFV, SU 85. Two of these have been issued to each Plt, 1 to each Plt Comdr and 1 other as per direction of the Plt Comdr. SU 85 has radio and so can communicate with other SU 85. If destroyed they return as SU 85.

This should even things. The SU 85 became available toward the end of 1943 and had the more powerful 85mm A/T Gun. It ceased production a few months later when the new T34/85 went into full production. In what a tanker terms each side has the exact same points. Germans will be on the attack. Plts as below, the rule that Soviets are never out numbered remains.

Soviet Guards Tank Platoon 1. 
Acting Plt Comdr - Grahame (SU 85)
Tank Comdr - Mike
Tank Comdr - Chris
Tank Comdr - Ash

Soviet Guards Tank Platoon 2
Plt Comdr - Martin (SU 85).   
Tank Comdr - Pippa
Tank Comdr - Carl
Tank Comdr - Rob

2nd Stug Battery LAH. (Stug IIIG)
231 - Gary
232 - Andy Miller
233 - Dan
234 - Tom

2nd Panzer Kompanie LAH (Pzr IVH)
231 - Shawn
232 - Dave
233 - Andy Mellor
234 - Kevin
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Gary Martin on December 05, 2018, 08:17:19 pm
Campaign Day 15/12/43

So beefed up by new SU85 the Soviets decided to probe forward toward the German positions. Given a break in the weather LAH also concluded a test of Soviet defences was in order and both forces bumped into each other and a general engagement followed.

Outcome; German = 9 (Win, Dave to Ace + 5 knockouts) Soviet = 9 (win + 6 Knockouts)

Campaign Standing;

German = 39
Soviet  = 10

Character Standing;

All players who attended have 15 Dec 43 recorded in Paybooks as a day in combat. Rob, Dan, Carl & Mike are awarded the Bronze Days in Combat award and receive 1RP for second day in combat.

Carl and Pippa are awarded Star of Lenin 2nd Class for heroic actions on the field. Pippa for a dash to outflank and Carl for slavish regard to orders.

Martin now known as the cat, as he once again survives using another of his 9 lives. Grahame, Pippa, Mike and Chris are promoted to Snr Sgt (2RP)
Dave received the Iron Cross 1st Class for destroying 3 tanks. He is promoted to Hauptscharfuhrer and takes command over from Shawn. He qualifies as an Ace and upgrades to a Tiger 1 and receives a total of 10RP.
Tom, Gary each receive 1CP for destroying a Tank. Andy recieves the Iron cross 1st class for valiantly holding the right flank against overwhelming odds the whole game. 3RP.
Grahame recieves 2CP for 2 tanks destroyed.
Pippa, Mike, Chris and Martin both receive 1CP for destroying a Tank.


Tank Score Total
Andy Miller on 4
Dave on 6
Tom on 3
Gary, Grahame & Martin on 2
Pippa, mike and Chris 1
Remainder on 0

To complex to work out all the character total RP. To work yours out mine is:
Tanks Knocked out = 2CP
Promotions = 3RP (Initial + to Oberscharfuhrer)
Days in Combat = 1RP (Bronze)
Bravery = 2RP (Iron Cross 2nd Class)
Total = 8

For Monday can I ask that each player completes the character sheet at annex A and hand to me. I need to check where everyone is. If I have missed anything let me know.
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Gary Martin on February 04, 2019, 11:40:47 am
Apologies for the late delay in results from last game.

So as the LAH launched its attack they were met by a rejuvenated and reinforced Soviet Army. As worn out Pzr IV's and Stug's desperately tried to hold, their exhausted crews were driven back on both fronts. Even the intervention of the first tiger failed to hold the red horde onslaught, and was forced to retreat to its start lines.

Outcome; German = 6 (Andy to Ace + 5 knockouts) Soviet = 15 (2 wins, bonus + 6 Knockouts)

Campaign Standing;

German = 45
Soviet  = 23

Character Standing;

24/12/43 is entered as a day in combat. All who have 4 days in combat are awarded the silver award and receive 2RP.
Andy destroyed a T34 (Carl) and reached Panzer Ace and upgrades to Tiger.  He recieves a commission and is promoted to Untersturmfuhrer and becomes Plt Cdr (5 Kills, Silver award). Dave is also promoted to Untersturmfuhrer and becomes Plt Cdr (8 Kills, silver award). Gary promoted to Hauptsharfuhrer (2 kills and silver). Dave and Gary recieves Iron Cross 1st class due to heroic acts.
Grahame upgrades to T34/85 and is promoted to Sgt Major and Plt Cdr. Martin also is promoted to Sgt Major (Silver, 2 kills). Pippa, Mike and Chris recieves the Star of Lenin Class 1 for heroic acts and destroying Tiger. Pippa and Chris also promoted to Sgt Major (Silver, 2 kills)

Tank Score Total
Andy Miller on 5
Dave on 8
Tom on 4
Grahame on 3
Gary, Mike, Chris, Pippa & Martin on 2
Mike, Dan and Ash on 1
Remainder on 0

So they are the main points from the last game. If I have got any thing wrong let me know. You all need to update your characters sheets as I haven't seen them. As an example mine is updated as follows;
Tanks Knocked out = 2CP
Promotions = 6RP (Initial + to Oberscharfuhrer + Hauptsharfuhrer)
Days in Combat = 3RP (Bronze + Silver)
Bravery = 6RP (Iron Cross 1st & 2nd Class)
Total = 17
       
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Gary Martin on February 04, 2019, 12:07:28 pm
Warning Order:

Next Campaign day approaches. After pushing back the LAH to its start lines 5Th Guards tank Army decides to launch a full attack with the first of the new T34/85's appearing. LAH can only hope that the new tigers will enable them to hold. Soviets are attacking so have to turn a dice to a 1 and move forward. STah, STah.....

Soviet Guards Tank Platoon 1. 
Plt Comdr - Grahame (T34/85)
Tank Comdr - Mike (SU 85)
Tank Comdr - Chris
Tank Comdr - Ash

Soviet Guards Tank Platoon 2
Plt Comdr - Martin (SU 85).   
Tank Comdr - Pippa (SU 85)
Tank Comdr - Carl
Tank Comdr - Rob

2nd Stug Battery LAH. (Stug IIIG)
231 - Andy Miller Tiger
232 - Gary
233 - Dan
234 - Tom

2nd Panzer Kompanie LAH (Pzr IVH)
231 - Dave - Tiger
232 - Shawn
233 - Andy Mellor
234 - Kevin
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Mike Whitaker on February 04, 2019, 05:49:51 pm
There appear to be two of me in the points tally, one on one, one on two
Title: Re: What A Tanker Campaign
Post by: Shawn Comer on February 04, 2019, 07:26:12 pm
I just calculated my RP, and I believe I should have a total of 8 RP.
Kills = 2 (2 RP)
Promotion to Untersharfuhrer (1 RP) and promotion to Obersharfuhrer (2 RP)
3x scenarios = Bronze Badge (1 RP)
Iron Cross 2nd Class (2 RP)

Is this correct?